82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ace Attorney]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Mr Plow wrote...

It would be something if the writers completely ignored this personal issue of infertility (treating it lightly as a DLC Easter Egg that fans can take or leave)

Would there be pitchforks out on here then?

they should - it should be buried and forgotten like the bad joke all those dossiers were. <_<

I don't think so. LotSB story wise might be as important, if not more, than Arrival. Liara turning into the Shadow Broker should have a big impact in the story.

[Yezdigerd]

If Miranda's father could reproduce with himself through his Y chromosomes it means sexual proceation isn't necessary. Miranda doesn't need a uterus or even a ovum to cook up a kid with hers Shepards and/or any other DNA template should she wish to.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:24 .

[MisterJB]

I should have made this more obvious: I am not giving you my opinion on the matter, Ieldra. I agree with you, I am simply saying that's how Miranda currently feels about herself.
The point we disagree is wether or not these doubts are a result of her father's influence. I say that they are inherent to the way she was created.

[MisterJB]

Yezdigerd wrote...

If Miranda's father could reproduce with himself through his Y chromosomes it measn sexual proceation isn't necessary. I really don't understand how Miranda couldn't cook up a kid with hers Shepards and/or any other DNA template.

We have already speculated on that. It's possible, and likely, that, in contrast to herself, Miranda wished for her child to be as natural as possible, including it's conception.
Some of us expect her to create her child like you suggested when she accepts her origins.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
I should have made this more obvious: I am not giving you my opinion on the matter, Ieldra. I agree with you, I am simply saying that's how Miranda currently feels about herself.
The point we disagree is wether or not these doubts are a result of her father's influence. I say that they are inherent to the way she was created.

I am aware of that. And I have presented arguments for my position. Basically, what's the difference in asking "why did random chance make me like this" and "why did my father make me like this"? The only difference is that you can't hold random chance responsible if it gave you something you didn't want. I think it is very much the point here that Miranda has enhancements that would be desirable for anyone. It is natural for human parents to give their children the best starting positions they can. So if you don't have reason to suspect a sinister purpose, *and* you have only enhancements that can be reasonably seen as desirable, then the obvious answer to the question is that your parents wanted to give you a better starting position in life. I can see absolutely no reason to have self-esteem issues for just that. That would be like me having self-esteem issues because I have a knack for math others don't have.

So my conclusion is that no, Miranda's self-esteem issues are not inherent in the way she was created. She only feels they are. And she feels that way because her father "didn't want a daughter", but a building block for his dynasty.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:38 .

[Yezdigerd]

MisterJB wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

If Miranda's father could reproduce with himself through his Y chromosomes it measn sexual proceation isn't necessary. I really don't understand how Miranda couldn't cook up a kid with hers Shepards and/or any other DNA template.

We have already speculated on that. It's possible, and likely, that, in contrast to herself, Miranda wished for her child to be as natural as possible, including it's conception.
Some of us expect her to create her child like you suggested when she accepts her origins.

If that kind reproductive techology is readily available, who but a religious weirdo would leave the child's gene configuration to the chance of the "natural way"?

Anyway it should be possible for her to have kids, even  as "natural" as cave woman if she wanted to.

Really her "infertility" really should be nothing but an advantage, she doesn't need any birthcontrol, although that is probably pretty easy handle 200 years into the future.

[enayasoul]

MisterJB wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...

If Miranda's father could reproduce with himself through his Y chromosomes it measn sexual proceation isn't necessary. I really don't understand how Miranda couldn't cook up a kid with hers Shepards and/or any other DNA template.

We have already speculated on that. It's possible, and likely, that, in contrast to herself, Miranda wished for her child to be as natural as possible, including it's conception.
Some of us expect her to create her child like you suggested when she accepts her origins.

I think Miranda would be very much involved in having a child as natural as possible and including conception.  What do you think she thinks about IVF?

I think it's close enough to being as natural as possible.  She would be in control of the whole process or involved with Mordin.  That's actually, how I am going about it in my fan fiction currently.  I didn't write any of my fiction without extensive research into the whole IVF process.   Wow... the struggles the woman and their husbands grow through is emotionally straining on many relationship and others it brings the couples even closer together emotionally and supportive of each other.

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
they should - it should be buried and forgotten like the bad joke all those dossiers were.

The thing is, ignoring them won't do that. Only an explicit statement that they were misinformation would make it possible to ignore them in future. And well, since they exist in-world by the Word of God ("We don't break the fourth wall" - Patrick Weekes), such a statement about all dossiers would raise questions about the Shadow Broker's competence. 

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...
If Miranda's father could reproduce with himself through his Y chromosomes it measn sexual proceation isn't necessary. I really don't understand how Miranda couldn't cook up a kid with hers Shepards and/or any other DNA template.

We have already speculated on that. It's possible, and likely, that, in contrast to herself, Miranda wished for her child to be as natural as possible, including it's conception.
Some of us expect her to create her child like you suggested when she accepts her origins.

I hope that should it become a topic, we get an option for that. Given the current state of biotechnology in the ME universe, including the knowledge contained in the Lazarus project, it's just not plausible that Miranda couldn't make a child with a "natural" mix of her and Shepard's genes using advanced reproductive technology. What exactly would be needed I have outlined in the relevant section of the Miranda Lawson FAQ (linked in the OP).

Besides, it may be a common intuition that "nature knows best", but I don't subscribe to it and neither does Miranda or she wouldn't have brought Shepard back. I don't even count it desirable as such to stick to the natural way. The only advantage that way has is that we don't need additional tools for it. And that certain parts are more fun. But these days we can have the fun part without the rest.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:57 .

[Skullheart]

if Miranda get pregnant, can anyone imagine she saying this to Shepard: "YOU!!! You bastard did this to me!!"

[Ieldra]

Don't make me think of unpleasant possibilities. No children in the game please. I just don't want it to be canonically impossible that she may have children after the events of ME3.

[enayasoul]

Too late Ieldra2... they already introduced a child into the game. It's bound to happen. Muahahaha.

[Jebel Krong]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Mr Plow wrote...

It
would be something if the writers completely ignored this personal
issue of infertility (treating it lightly as a DLC Easter Egg that fans
can take or leave)

Would there be pitchforks out on here then?

they should - it should be buried and forgotten like the bad joke all those dossiers were. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

I
don't think so. LotSB story wise might be as important, if not more,
than Arrival. Liara turning into the Shadow Broker should have a big
impact in the story.

LoSB was important, yes but the dossiers weren't part of that - they were in essence an easter egg for revisiting the hub after completing the dlc, muchlike the videos were (and not all of them were serious).

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
they should - it should be buried and forgotten like the bad joke all those dossiers were.

The thing is, ignoring them won't do that. Only an explicit statement that they were misinformation would make it possible to ignore them in future. And well, since they exist in-world by the Word of God ("We don't break the fourth wall" - Patrick Weekes), such a statement about all dossiers would raise questions about the Shadow Broker's competence. 

ignoring them is preferable to acknowledging them and giving them weight by referencing them one way or another in-game. frankly they were all totally idiotic if they were meant to be taken seriously, and if not - well the jokes fell flat. besides the games have got more important ground to cover than refuting all the dossier material.

besides, i've said it before and i'll say it again: mass effect does not need to be tarnished by the overused cliche "baby syndrome" mention/plot/story/whatever. it's bad enough some people see it more of a virtual dating simulator than anything else as it is, without adding pregnancy/babies to the mix.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 29 juillet 2011 - 10:33 .

[MACharlie1]

I'm not sure if infertility and child taken away from mom should ever be taken as a joke.

And this is coming from the guy who has no sense of a "tasteful joke". Lock and key anyone.

[Ieldra]

@Jebel:
Most dossiers can be ignored without repercussions. Who cares that Legion plays online games, for instance. It's an unconnected factoid. No harm is done to anyone's personal story arc if it's never mentioned again. Miranda's infertility, however, is not of the same kind: it sets a canonical state in something players who like Miranda, as a rule, would care about. It cannot be ignored, because if it's never mentioned again, it remains canonical. The damage is done. There's no way to prevent it anymore. The only option is to reverse it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 juillet 2011 - 10:36 .

[Jebel Krong]

MACharlie1 wrote...

I'm not sure if infertility and child taken away from mom should ever be taken as a joke.

And this is coming from the guy who has no sense of a "tasteful joke". Lock and key anyone.

er that's not the context i was using the word in.... ignoring miranda for the moment, were any of the others better - legion playing mmos?

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Jebel:
Most dossiers can be ignored without repercussions. Who cares that Legion plays online games, for instance. It's an unconnected factoid. No harm is done to anyone's personal story arc if it's never mentioned again. Miranda's infertility, however, is not of the same kind: it sets a canonical state in something players who like Miranda, as a rule, would care about. It cannot be ignored, because if it's never mentioned again, it remains canonical. The damage is done. There's no way to prevent it anymore. The only option is to reverse it.

so you can ignore legion's as unimportant and throw-away, even though it's pathetic, but not miranda's? hell *you* are acting like it's the most important plot development to come out of the game... i'd counter: it's not even a confirmed plot/character development at all (especially given they have already caveated ithe informational reliability of the SB). and if it's not mentioned again, we can assume that it was wrong because it wasn't important enough to address, and that would be the best outcome all-round.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 29 juillet 2011 - 10:40 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
  It is natural for human parents to give their children the best starting positions they can. So if you don't have reason to suspect a sinister purpose, *and* you have only enhancements that can be reasonably seen as desirable, then the obvious answer to the question is that your parents wanted to give you a better starting position in life. I can see absolutely no reason to have self-esteem issues for just that.

That only means that they had good intentions and you should not resent them. It doesn't tell anything about how you should feel about yourself.

That would be like me having self-esteem issues because I have a knack for math others don't have.

If I had a knack for math that was only possible due to experiments that scientists did on me, I would most likely have self esteem issues. Anytime I resolved a complicated problem, I would not feel pride. I would think "I didn't do this, the scientists did. My parents payed in order for me to be able to do this"
Is it the most rational response? Hardly, it's an emotional response.

Yezdigerd wrote...

If that kind reproductive techology is readily available, who but a religious weirdo would leave the child's gene configuration to the chance of the "natural way"?

Miranda had traumatic experiences as a child that left psychological scars on her adult self due to the way she was created coupled with an abusive father. There is no need for religion to be involved in order to color her views on genetic engineering.

Jebel Krong wrote...
legion playing mmos?

Legion's dossier was one of the best. Read between the lines. His gaming habits gives us insigth into the mentality of the True Geth.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 juillet 2011 - 10:48 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Who knows if Miri's father will be in ME3 or not. But would Miri even want to make closure with her father?

Her father may be already dead. Invasion ring a bell?

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 29 juillet 2011 - 10:55 .

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...
Legion's dossier was one of the best. Read between the lines. His gaming habits gives us insigth into the mentality of the True Geth.

nothing that wasn't already covered in his convos, however there lies the rub: some hinted at other aspects, some were clearly meant as jokes (grunt's and i think jacob's seem to spring to mind - it's been a while since i read them), and some seem to be meant to be taken at face value (garrus, samara etc). the lack of consistency counts against them taken forward.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 29 juillet 2011 - 10:56 .

[Arijharn]

LuxDragon wrote...


I actually liked a few things from Miranda's dossier. Interestingly enough, I don't like her conversation with Oriana though. The fashion subscription, I did like because it showed that she's a little more complex than we give her credit for; you know, indulge herself and relax.

I would have thought you'd love it with all your correspondence chapters

Actually, I think all of the SB dossiers are canon in the sense that they're there, but some may either be incorrect due to insufficient information or otherwise. I'm inclined to think Miranda's is right, because to do otherwise is plain cherry-picking imo, which I feel is almost as if you've buried your head in the sand... but, I think I've said all this in the past, and I think Jebel went so far as to provide me with picture somewhere...

[Vertigo_1]

Mass Effect 3: New Character Interactions and Consequences Detailed

And this part in particular:

Pregnancy:

Seriously.

Apparently three playable characters in Mass Effect 3 have the capacity to become pregnant. Whether or not they actually give birth in ME3, or in a later DLC pack (baby DLC!), is unclear. So too is the wording regarding the gender and race of the three characters in question. “Both male and female main characters will have the ability to become a
parent; with humans or a non-human (unisex option).”Hmmmm… do I want Miranda to give birth to little ice cube babies or do I want to see how good Jack will look when her tattoos stretch out like silly putty? Can two ladies get pregnant? There’s a cutscene for you! Of course, it could end up being Garrus and Grunt for all we know, and to be fair, it would probably be pretty intense. Though you can always just use a space condom…

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 30 juillet 2011 - 02:55 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Mass Effect 3: New Character Interactions and Consequences Detailed

And this part in particular:

Pregnancy:

Seriously.
Apparently three playable characters in Mass Effect 3 have the capacity to become pregnant. Whether or not they actually give birth in ME3, or in a later DLC pack (baby DLC!), is unclear. So too is the wording regarding the gender and race of the three characters in question. “Both male and female main characters will have the ability to become a
parent; with humans or a non-human (unisex option).” Hmmmm… do I want Miranda to give birth to little ice cube babies or do I want to see how good Jack will look when her tattoos stretch out like silly putty? Can two ladies get pregnant? There’s a cutscene for you! Of course, it could end up being Garrus and Grunt for all we know, and to be fair, it would probably be pretty intense. Though you can always just use a space condom…

O.O

I'm VERY happy.

.....but...will it still count for Miri?

[jtav]

*gulps loudly* They're going to do the stupid miracle pregnancy aren't they? And Liara is almost certainly the unisex option.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

*gulps loudly* They're going to do the stupid miracle pregnancy aren't they? And Liara is almost certainly the unisex option.

I wouldn't jump yet jtav, as the site is now being called into question in the original thread