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[Taboo]

Cerberus was already in deep ****.

They're like the IRA sometimes.

One side is more zealous than the other and that side takes over.

And it leads to **** like the Hyde Park bombing, or Pragia in our case.

The goals become about something else, NOT nationalism, which Cerberus embodies.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 14 août 2012 - 08:11 .

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...

If you all make a doll, I'm sure you'll shoot right by the talimancers.

...and then get locked.

You all think Miranda knew about that admiral Cerberus had killed in ME1? This has probably come up before, but I'm just thinking of it now, and I'm curious. Her explanation for the experiments in ME1 made sense (non-sentient shock troops, though you can see how that might lead to Mr. Lawson's experiments someday), but I'd be curious how she'd rationalize that one. Assuming she knew about it...

Well, Kahoku was investigating his Marines, who were killed by Cerberus. I rationalize it as Kahoku being killed because if he found out all the details, he would go public and Cerberus would be in deep s**t, so they had him killed.

Exactly. If someone uncovers your important secrets, you can't just let him go public with it. She'd have called it an unfortunate necessity, but such are the rules of the covert operations game.

So she's okay with Murder? I mean, he didn't do anything wrong, he was acting properly in his position as an alliance admiral, and cerberus murdered him.  So she's okay with murder if she can justify it?  If it benefits her/her agency?

Not a troll question, legit inquiry.

[o Ventus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cerberus was already in deep ****.

They're like the IRA sometimes.

One side is more zealous than the other and that side takes over.

And it leads to **** like the Hyde Park bombing, or Pragia in our case.

The goals become about something else, NOT nationalism, which Cerberus embodies.

For all intents and purposes, Pragia actually was a rogue cell.

[Taboo]

There's a difference between murdering and killing.

Seeking a person out to kill them because they pose a possible threat is debatable. Capture is preferable.

Shooting someone Dirty Harry style in a diner because they pulled a gun on you is NOT murder.

Wilson is a great example. He COULD have caused problems. Shooting him there was far better than what TIM would have done to him.

As much as this pains me to post.

[o Ventus]

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...

If you all make a doll, I'm sure you'll shoot right by the talimancers.

...and then get locked.

You all think Miranda knew about that admiral Cerberus had killed in ME1? This has probably come up before, but I'm just thinking of it now, and I'm curious. Her explanation for the experiments in ME1 made sense (non-sentient shock troops, though you can see how that might lead to Mr. Lawson's experiments someday), but I'd be curious how she'd rationalize that one. Assuming she knew about it...

Well, Kahoku was investigating his Marines, who were killed by Cerberus. I rationalize it as Kahoku being killed because if he found out all the details, he would go public and Cerberus would be in deep s**t, so they had him killed.

Exactly. If someone uncovers your important secrets, you can't just let him go public with it. She'd have called it an unfortunate necessity, but such are the rules of the covert operations game.

So she's okay with Murder? I mean, he didn't do anything wrong, he was acting properly in his position as an alliance admiral, and cerberus murdered him.  So she's okay with murder if she can justify it?  If it benefits her/her agency?

Not a troll question, legit inquiry.

Cerberus is a high-profile black ops organization that is funded and supported by front companies and private investors. Admiral Kahoku is a high-ranking Alliance official.

If Kahoku were to publicly disclose what he found, Cerberus' supporters would pull funding and front companies would be shut down. Worst case, the Council or Alliance would go on a witch hunt for Cerberus operatives.

[Taboo]

o Ventus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cerberus was already in deep ****.

They're like the IRA sometimes.

One side is more zealous than the other and that side takes over.

And it leads to **** like the Hyde Park bombing, or Pragia in our case.

The goals become about something else, NOT nationalism, which Cerberus embodies.

For all intents and purposes, Pragia actually was a rogue cell.

That's my point. It isn't the Cerberus she wants to be a part of.

That's why I point out an IRA action. Some of them were really conservative, others were socialists. This lead to some violent shifts and tradgedies.

But the IRA that got attention was ALWAYS the one that killed innocents.

[krukow]

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...
So she's okay with Murder? I mean, he didn't do anything wrong, he was acting properly in his position as an alliance admiral, and cerberus murdered him.  So she's okay with murder if she can justify it?  If it benefits her/her agency?

Not a troll question, legit inquiry.

Cerberus is a high-profile black ops organization that is funded and supported by front companies and private investors. Admiral Kahoku is a high-ranking Alliance official.

If Kahoku were to publicly disclose what he found, Cerberus' supporters would pull funding and front companies would be shut down. Worst case, the Council or Alliance would go on a witch hunt for Cerberus operatives.

And that's true, but it's still murder.  Kahoku has done nothing wrong or immoral, he's simply carrying out his duty.  Cerberus kills him purely out of self-interest.  If I kill someone because they know I broke the law and that their continued existance will result in me facing consequences, I'm murdering them.  Cerberus is no different.

I'll concede that it's a sticky question, and that's why I'm curious as to where you all think Miranda falls into it, and what she thinks of it.

[hot_heart]

Personally, with Miranda, I feel that because she appears to have some distance from some of the murkier aspects of Cerberus, it makes them a little easier for her to stomach. She would send Veetor to be interrogated rather than do it herself, for example.

In this situation, I doubt she'd condone the action but she would possibly find some way of rationalising it.

Modifié par hot_heart, 14 août 2012 - 08:22 .

[jtav]

Yes, Miranda would commit murder if she felt the situation warranted it. She is not a nice, or even a particularly good person. She is a spy, the 2IC of a terrorist organization. Good people need not apply.

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wilson is a great example. He COULD have caused problems.

Pretty sure that doesn’t count as justifiable homicide in any jurisdiction.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

So she's okay with Murder? I mean, he didn't do anything wrong, he was acting properly in his position as an alliance admiral, and cerberus murdered him.  So she's okay with murder if she can justify it?  If it benefits her/her agency?

Not a troll question, legit inquiry.

We can't tell if Miranda did know about that, but she isn't blind, she must've been aware of some of Cerberus shady dealings. I don't think she'd be glad that murder was the last resort, especially since that would mean something went wrong, but let's not forget she truly believed Cerberus, so she probably had some sort of end justifies the means mentality. If she knew about Kahoku she'd probabl believe it was necessary for the sake of the organization.

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wilson is a great example. He COULD have caused problems.

Pretty sure that doesn’t count as justifiable homicide in any jurisdiction.

I never said it was justified. That's my point. It would have been far better to capture him.

That's what I would have done.

Everything is black and white until it involves you. It's far harder when you're involved.

[o Ventus]

krukow wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...
So she's okay with Murder? I mean, he didn't do anything wrong, he was acting properly in his position as an alliance admiral, and cerberus murdered him.  So she's okay with murder if she can justify it?  If it benefits her/her agency?

Not a troll question, legit inquiry.

Cerberus is a high-profile black ops organization that is funded and supported by front companies and private investors. Admiral Kahoku is a high-ranking Alliance official.

If Kahoku were to publicly disclose what he found, Cerberus' supporters would pull funding and front companies would be shut down. Worst case, the Council or Alliance would go on a witch hunt for Cerberus operatives.

And that's true, but it's still murder.  Kahoku has done nothing wrong or immoral, he's simply carrying out his duty.  Cerberus kills him purely out of self-interest.  If I kill someone because they know I broke the law and that their continued existance will result in me facing consequences, I'm murdering them.  Cerberus is no different.

I'll concede that it's a sticky question, and that's why I'm curious as to where you all think Miranda falls into it, and what she thinks of it.

Your example is a little faulty.

Cerberus has men and women who've joined because they legitimately believe they're doing good for the galaxy. If the worst-case scenario comes to pass, a lot of those people will die or be forced into "public exile" (as I like to call it).

Morally, it wasn't an issue of covering their tracks. That's the logistical side of it.

Big companies do it in real life too (I mean protecting company interest, not killing people).

A crude comparison would be the Destroy ending. You kill the Reapers (Kahoku) to prevent them from killing everybody else (going public, exposing Cerberus).

[o Ventus]

hot_heart wrote...

Personally, with Miranda, I feel that because she appears to have some distance from some of the murkier aspects of Cerberus, it makes them a little easier for her to stomach. She would send Veetor to be interrogated rather than do it herself, for example.

In this situation, I doubt she'd condone the action but she would possibly find some way of rationalising it.

But she does interrogate Veetor herself.

Or at least, her dialogue about it implies that she does.

[krukow]

o Ventus wrote...

Your example is a little faulty.

Cerberus has men and women who've joined because they legitimately believe they're doing good for the galaxy. If the worst-case scenario comes to pass, a lot of those people will die or be forced into "public exile" (as I like to call it).

Morally, it wasn't an issue of covering their tracks. That's the logistical side of it.

Big companies do it in real life too (I mean protecting company interest, not killing people).

A crude comparison would be the Destroy ending. You kill the Reapers (Kahoku) to prevent them from killing everybody else (going public, exposing Cerberus).

Well, I won't agree with the Reaper/Kahoku comparison.  Kahoku is innocent, the reapers are genocide machines (i'm using genocide correctly here by the way, unlike 94% of BSN).

Your earlier point is a good one though, there may have been plenty of innocents who would be damaged if cerberus was taken down (though I don't think they're why TIM ordered it)

[Babi_Siha]

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wilson is a great example. He COULD have caused problems.

Pretty sure that doesn’t count as justifiable homicide in any jurisdiction.

It's not that he could cause problems; he did cause them, he betrayed everyone he was working with. Maybe that wouldn't be justifiable in any jurisdiction, but morally I don't think Miranda did wrong, Wilson compromised the Lazarus Project and was responsible for the death of a lot of people, e deserved that bullet.

[LanceSolous13]

What did she DO to Veetor? O_o

[Taboo]

She has far more thought into emotions than TIM does.

She is openly shocked at this actions on the Collector Ship.

This is what makes parts of Cerberus so dumb at times. It's very easy to justify things when you are not a victim. **** changes REAL fast once you get involved.

She's realized this by the end of the game. She leaves Cerberus because it's become more than evident that whatever Cerberus WAS is long gone.

I keep looking back to that artifact he was exposed to all those years ago.

H'd been slowly indoctrinated since then. The Reapers like to take one faction and warp it to their ends. This happen in Javik's cycle too.

That indoctrinated part of his cycle ALSO wanted to Control the Reapers.

If that's the case, he's always been a puppet for the power behind the throne.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 14 août 2012 - 08:30 .

[o Ventus]

krukow wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Your example is a little faulty.

Cerberus has men and women who've joined because they legitimately believe they're doing good for the galaxy. If the worst-case scenario comes to pass, a lot of those people will die or be forced into "public exile" (as I like to call it).

Morally, it wasn't an issue of covering their tracks. That's the logistical side of it.

Big companies do it in real life too (I mean protecting company interest, not killing people).

A crude comparison would be the Destroy ending. You kill the Reapers (Kahoku) to prevent them from killing everybody else (going public, exposing Cerberus).

Well, I won't agree with the Reaper/Kahoku comparison.  Kahoku is innocent, the reapers are genocide machines (i'm using genocide correctly here by the way, unlike 94% of BSN).

Your earlier point is a good one though, there may have been plenty of innocents who would be damaged if cerberus was taken down (though I don't think they're why TIM ordered it)

I DID admit that it was a crude example.

[hot_heart]

o Ventus wrote...
But she does interrogate Veetor herself.

Or at least, her dialogue about it implies that she does.

Oh, really? My bad. I was always too nice a guy to find out. I always thought it was implied he would be handed over to Cerberus in the same way Legion could. Cheers for the information.

Modifié par hot_heart, 14 août 2012 - 08:32 .

[Captain Scruff N7]

I love the scene at the end of ME2 when the Illusive Man orders Miranda to stop Shepard and she refuses. She chooses Shepard over the organization that she has been loyal to for years. Good stuff. =)
 Not to be random...

Modifié par Captain Scruff N7, 14 août 2012 - 08:33 .

[o Ventus]

Captain Scruff N7 wrote...

I love the scene at the end of ME2 when the Illusive Man orders Miranda to stop Shepard and she refuses. She chooses Shepard over the organization that she has been loyal to for years. Good stuff. =)

One of the best moments from ME2, easily.

Though I will say that it makes much more sense if she does it while romanced. It feels kind of rushed if she isn't. Just IMO.

[krukow]

I don't think it's just choosing Shep (She does it if you don't romance her), I think it's her finally seeing cerberus for what it is (or has become) and stepping away and joining something worth fighting for (shep's cause).

...It's more fun if she's romanced though.

[jtav]

She seems to have a fairly good knowledge of what was done to Veetor, but it's never made explicit.

[Taboo]

o Ventus wrote...

Captain Scruff N7 wrote...

I love the scene at the end of ME2 when the Illusive Man orders Miranda to stop Shepard and she refuses. She chooses Shepard over the organization that she has been loyal to for years. Good stuff. =)

One of the best moments from ME2, easily.

Though I will say that it makes much more sense if she does it while romanced. It feels kind of rushed if she isn't. Just IMO.

I pay money to see the look on TIM's face when he finds out that Shepard has been fratranizing with Miranda.