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[Ieldra]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Which makes me want to inform Miranda of the lovely little thing called sperm banks.

I find it much better for my mental health if I just change the dossier to "Miranda has casual sex. Miranda wants children, but can't have them."

The character derailment started there.

Indeed. From that point on, I dreaded what they'd do with Miranda, and I was 100% correct. I recall you dreaded the same...

I have some special hatred reserved for the SB dossier for that reason. I recall when LotSB came out, I don't think I've written "I hate this" about anything else nearly that often. Not even about the original ending of ME3.

There is one thing I liked about the dossier and that is that she is infertile. The infertile career-driven woman. I liked that, because it added some kind of depth through a striking issue that many of todays' people can refer to..

You see, that's the other thing that makes no sense. Here we have advanced medical technology to the point where soldiers get standard genetic modification treatments, and Miranda is stuck being infertile? It wasn't a single week after LotSB came out when I posted a link to a scientifc article that basically said getting around any kind of infertility by use of things like artificial gametogenesis and IVF isn't too far into the future. It's as if the writer totally forgot that she was writing about an SF universe. That the genophage worked for so long can only be explained by the fact that the krogan don't have any scientists so I can suspend my disbelief for it. A human with knowledge and experience in the most advanced medical technology of the ME universe and she has no idea how to get around her infertility? It makes no f*cking sense.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 août 2012 - 05:22 .

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's known that Jay took advice from Weekes. 

He helped improve what Jay had written, and doubtless helped a lot so that there are good elements. However, he was not in control of Miranda's content this time around, and it shows. What did he think of the direction? I'm not sure, and there's no way for me to know.

But in ME2, Miranda's gifts are good things, she has insecurities about them, and she struggles to accept who she is due to her upbringing. That's a very different perspective.

Modifié par flemm, 15 août 2012 - 05:25 .

[hot_heart]

flemm wrote...

hot_heart wrote...
Also, I like that, at one point, Jacob is all, "Let's go get the Collectors NAAAOO!" and Miranda actually recommends building the team some more. I mean, it's a good call but I always felt the roles would've been switched there.

Well, I think it's appropriate because Miranda has never really been "gung ho" in that sense. Building up the team is the more rational choice. It makes sense that Jacob, as the soldier, just wants to get the fighting started.

Yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. The characters can be a bit flexible that way. Just that, since it's after the Reaper IFF, you should have a substantial team already and, if that advert of her is to be believed, she'll get the mission done because of the team, or in spite of it.

Though I'm not exactly sure how much weight you can give an ad that looks like an interview.

[Stalker]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Which makes me want to inform Miranda of the lovely little thing called sperm banks.

I find it much better for my mental health if I just change the dossier to "Miranda has casual sex. Miranda wants children, but can't have them."

The character derailment started there.

Indeed. From that point on, I dreaded what they'd do with Miranda, and I was 100% correct. I recall you dreaded the same...

I have some special hatred reserved for the SB dossier for that reason. I recall when LotSB came out, I don't think I've written "I hate this" about anything else nearly that often. Not even about the original ending of ME3.

There is one thing I liked about the dossier and that is that she is infertile. The infertile career-driven woman. I liked that, because it added some kind of depth through a striking issue that many of todays' people can refer to..

You see, that's the other thing that makes no sense. Here we have advanced medical technology to the point where soldiers get standard genetic modification treatments, and Miranda is stuck being infertile? It wasn't a single week after LotSB came out when I posted a link to a scientifc article that basically said getting around any kind of infertility by use of things like artificial gametogenesis and IVF isn't too far into the future. It's as if the writer totally forgot that she was writing about an SF universe. That the genophage worked for so long can only be explained by the fact that the krogan don't have any scientists so I can suspend my disbelief for it. A human with knowledge and experience in the most advanced medical technology of the ME universe and she has no idea how to get around her infertility? It makes no f*cking sense.  

Sure it's rather questionable in that kind of future, but it's not to the point that it's completely senseless. We don't know for how long she actually knew that she was infertile or when the cancer (?) actually developed.

Until today, I also assumed that she just didn't mind being infertile that much to get into a possibly dangerous surgery.

[jtav]

And she had goals and ambition. When you ask her for the last time what drew her to Cerberus, Ori isn't even mentioned. But in ME3, she comes off as indifferent to everything but Ori. And we're to see this as salvific.

Not the same character.

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You have chosen to look at it as malicious.

It depends what you mean. More misguided than malicious, actually. Jay's view basically amounts to "while Miranda is not all bad, in the sense that she is capable of good, healthy feelings, the fact that she is genetically engineered is inherently bad, because it is unnatural, and the sign of this is that she is unable to have children."

This nonsense was of course not part of the character as originally introduced.

It's also separate from the idea that Miranda has natural desires for sex, children, etc. Of course she should and does.

You're assuming something that isn't stated. If anything, I find these responses reactionary. You see the possibility of something you don't like and react to it.

I'd venture to guess that people would still be upset if her infertility was caused by something other than her tailoring.

Not everyone was shocked by this development. In fact it's only one section of her fanbase that hates it. 

It's simply something that came about as being a part of her character. It would be offensive if it meant she couldn't be compotent without them.

She is. She always gets the job done. 

It's just another layer in the woven tapestry.

[fiendishchicken]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...
Never saw her dossier that way and I see how it all ties together now, but what's the sense of forcefully getting pregnant from a stranger?

Exactly. I reject that interpretation because it makes no f*cking sense. I refuse to let any artificial stupidity touch Miranda.

"Let me help you miranda"
"No shepard, I have to confront my father and the Cerberus army that's with him alone"

I don't know about anyone else, but I thought this whole thing was completely stupid, considering the Reaper War was in it's embryonic stages (I blieve her reasoning was Shepard's busyness). If I could go on goose chase side missions, I could have helped out my LI; but alas, 'tis not to be.

As we've many times discussed:

"Miranda, let me help you."

"I can't Shepard. You're supposed to be in love with the Asari, or you were supposed to dump me to go back to Ashley. I am nothing more than a temptress that has to die attaining redemption for a non-action that didn't require any remorse whatsoever, adding false dramtic weight to the story and giving you another voice to hear during your creepy dreams chasing that kid you saw for about 2 minutes and who told you that you couldn't save him, even though that is completely against the nature of any child of that age."

"Miranda... What? :pinched:"

[krukow]

fiendishchicken wrote...
 you were supposed to dump me to go back to Ashley.

QFT

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

And she had goals and ambition. When you ask her for the last time what drew her to Cerberus, Ori isn't even mentioned. But in ME3, she comes off as indifferent to everything but Ori. And we're to see this as salvific.

Not the same character.

Blame the writers not her.

[hot_heart]

flemm wrote...
The issue isn't that Miranda wants to have a baby. The issue is that Jay W. wants and expects you and I to read that dossier and to deduce something like the following: "Miranda has casual sex, wants a baby and cannot have one. And therefore is a bad person."

I highlight that last part intentionally because that is really where the problem starts. You and I do not react that way because we do not share Jay W.'s narrow worldview in which career-driven women are to be condemned as unhealthy and undesirable.

Hmm, wow, we usually see eye-to-eye on almost everything but I never interpreted it that way.

I thought it was just a (clumsy) way to try and make her more sympathetic.

[jtav]

Miranda doesn't have an independent existence outside of what the writers do. Blaming her is blaming the writers and vice versa.

[JeanLuc761]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You're assuming something that isn't stated. If anything, I find these responses reactionary. You see the possibility of something you don't like and react to it.

I'd venture to guess that people would still be upset if her infertility was caused by something other than her tailoring.

Not everyone was shocked by this development. In fact it's only one section of her fanbase that hates it. 

It's simply something that came about as being a part of her character. It would be offensive if it meant she couldn't be compotent without them.

She is. She always gets the job done. 

It's just another layer in the woven tapestry.

That's a good way of looking at it.  Honestly, if Miranda's genetic engineering had no drawbacks, I would have been disappointed.  Her infertility makes her more interesting and gives more insight into her personality, in my opinion.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
I'd venture to guess that people would still be upset if her infertility was caused by something other than her tailoring.

Actually, no one is upset about Miranda being infertile per se.

People say: it's no big deal/she can cure it/she can adopt/it might even be a good thing, etc.

hot_heart wrote...

Hmm, wow, we usually see eye-to-eye on almost everything but I never interpreted it that way.

Well, the expression I used wasn't really meant to be precise, tbh. Doubtless there is more to it than that.

Modifié par flemm, 15 août 2012 - 05:42 .

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
 you were supposed to dump me to go back to Ashley.

QFT

Writer's intent, not mine.

Writer: "Miranda represents the temptress that draws you from your path romantically. She's not supposed to be much more than a fling."

Me: "But I genuinely fell in love with her character. My Shepard and her are two of a kind, and frankly I don't want some person who regards me as superior. I liked having to work to get her love, and I love knowing that I am the only person she has ever felt this way towards. Our bond is incredibly deep, that we seem to be able to meld in situations where we just know when another is down and depressed and that we are there to reassure or care for the other."

Writer: "lol wat? haha, Miranda was just supposed to be a HPOA that you blew off steam with, while you mourned for Ashley and longed to return to the glorious Alliance! Cerberus are bad guys who only want to control the galaxy. Btw, ur supposed 2 pick the quarians during rannoch lol. and jump into the synthesis beam. that fixes everything."

[jtav]

Ashley has many of the same problems as Miranda which leads me to believe they shared a writer, there was a directive to make them more "appealing" or both.

[hot_heart]

Now I've caught up some more, I agree with what Taboo is saying. I don't think whoever wrote the dossier was coming at it from that angle, subconsciously or not.

I can't profess to be inside the writer's head but I imagine the thought process was to try and find some way to create sympathy for her, and there was a way that ties into the very thing that has always tripped her up mentally before, making the problem very tangible.

[krukow]

fiendishchicken wrote...

krukow wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
 you were supposed to dump me to go back to Ashley.

QFT

Writer's intent, not mine.

I know, I'm just teasin 

[Stalker]

fiendishchicken wrote...

krukow wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
 you were supposed to dump me to go back to Ashley.

QFT

Writer's intent, not mine.

Writer: "Miranda represents the temptress that draws you from your path romantically. She's not supposed to be much more than a fling."

Me: "But I genuinely fell in love with her character. My Shepard and her are two of a kind, and frankly I don't want some person who regards me as superior. I liked having to work to get her love, and I love knowing that I am the only person she has ever felt this way towards. Our bond is incredibly deep, that we seem to be able to meld in situations where we just know when another is down and depressed and that we are there to reassure or care for the other."

Writer: "lol wat? haha, Miranda was just supposed to be a HPOA that you blew off steam with, while you mourned for Ashley and longed to return to the glorious Alliance! Cerberus are bad guys who only want to control the galaxy. Btw, ur supposed 2 pick the quarians during rannoch lol. and jump into the synthesis beam. that fixes everything."

I can identify with that

[LanceSolous13]

Actually, I interpreated her SB Dosier as her looking for someone to care for her; to love her. I felt she didn't realise that dating sites are mostly people looking for sex and really not an actual relationship. Hence why she then terminated the account.

I don't have them right in front of me, but that's how I remember interpreting it.

About Miranda being bisexual/lesbian. Ehhhhh... I can't really see it. I know quite a few people would love for her to be such, I just can't see it. I can see Tali, but no Miranda. Now, I support those that do 100% though. I suppose I should mention I haven't heard any fem!shep talking with Miranda dialogue though.

Now, about Kaidan and Ashley being bisexual in Mass Effect 1, this makes me laugh evertime. Not that they were almost bi, but just think about the Fox News Controversy! That would have been so much worse if they had.

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

Miranda doesn't have an independent existence outside of what the writers do. Blaming her is blaming the writers and vice versa.

no, blame the writers for not having the passion for one of their characters that you do. If you were to follow what the writers wanted you to follow, Miranda was the temptress/hpoa who you were supposed to blow off steam with, then break up with to return to ashley or liara. Then she would die a heroine for, really no bloody reason at all, gaining redemption for something, and dying knowing she had known her sister.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Ashley has many of the same problems as Miranda which leads me to believe they shared a writer, there was a directive to make them more "appealing" or both.

She does, yeah. it's the overall direction of that part of the game, actually. (By which I mean the main story minus the genophage and Geth/quarian portions).

Modifié par flemm, 15 août 2012 - 05:44 .

[fiendishchicken]

LanceSolous13 wrote...
Now, about Kaidan and Ashley being bisexual in Mass Effect 1, this makes me laugh evertime. Not that they were almost bi, but just think about the Fox News Controversy! That would have been so much worse if they had.

I can see Kaidan being bi (he's doesn't completely swing either way if you're a male) but Ashley, I headcanon her as pretty much being the daughter of Rick Santorum or Mike Huckabee. It's part of the reason I really don't like her.

[kaymarierose]

LanceSolous13 wrote...
I suppose I should mention I haven't heard any fem!shep talking with Miranda dialogue though.

With that, I'm just gonna throw you this link to vierna-drottingu's mass effect gallery. You may or may not have seen it before.

It's fanfiction, but I think its done really well. 

Modifié par kaymarierose, 15 août 2012 - 05:50 .

[krukow]

fiendishchicken wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
Now, about Kaidan and Ashley being bisexual in Mass Effect 1, this makes me laugh evertime. Not that they were almost bi, but just think about the Fox News Controversy! That would have been so much worse if they had.

I can see Kaidan being bi (he's doesn't completely swing either way if you're a male) but Ashley, I headcanon her as pretty much being the daughter of Rick Santorum or Mike Huckabee. It's part of the reason I really don't like her.

You don't like her because of your headcanon?
...

I'm glad Miranda didn't join your normandy!!!

...she still shoulda joined mine though