82210 réponses à ce sujet

[hot_heart]

Ashley's ancestors were part of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Modifié par hot_heart, 15 août 2012 - 05:54 .

[Taboo]

hot_heart wrote...

Now I've caught up some more, I agree with what Taboo is saying. I don't think whoever wrote the dossier was coming at it from that angle, subconsciously or not.

I can't profess to be inside the writer's head but I imagine the thought process was to try and find some way to create sympathy for her, and there was a way that ties into the very thing that has always tripped her up mentally before, making the problem very tangible.

What is the one complaint that people have against Miranda if they don't talk to her? She's cold and she's a ****.

The infertility is a cheap shot, but I feel that it's there for sympathy, not malice.

People who didn't identify with her that way previously got upset. That's what's apprent to me at least.

That part of her has always been there, it simply manifested as being another part of the character, more so than before and people interpreted it as malicious.

That's just the way it is.

[LanceSolous13]

RICK SANTORUM! HISSSSSSSSSSSS!

*jumps like a cat onto the top shelf of a bookcase*

Hissssssssss.. You've tainted the entire thread and forums with that name.

[jtav]

Um, easy with the politics, please guys?

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
The infertility is a cheap shot, but I feel that it's there for sympathy, not malice.

It may be there for a little of both. Doesn't really matter. If handled intelligently, it could be a good thing.

So far that hasn't happened.

[hot_heart]

Yeah, from what I've seen, I think it 'worked' for a fair few people who disliked Miranda. Whereas, it probably rubbed fans of the character the wrong way...

I can't really blame them for wanting to try and find some balance for the people who don't get to know the character because they can't get past that exterior. Even then, you're prying into very personal information to learn this.

...which is also kinda creepy.

But I do recall seeing one bonehead actually legitimately hold her infertility against her.

[Sifr]

I don't think that Miranda was looking to get pregnant or wanted to have a child with a complete stranger, I think she just wanted to know that she could?

We must remember that at the beginning, Miranda was very clinical and analytical, so her looking to see if she could get pregnant, makes a reasonable amount of sense and is something that is rather in-character.

Whether or not she would have kept the child if she got pregant? Well... we'll never know. It's best to leave it at that.

But I think the real issue was that it was worrying Miranda that something might be wrong. She clearly has medical qualifications and could easily have run some scans on herself, which might have detected that there was a problem.

For someone who likes to keep in control of the situation, finding herself betrayed and not in control of her own body? That would scare the hell out of Miranda!

How can this be character derailment? Everything Miranda does throughout this is done in a way that is logical, reasonable and clearly well thought-through? Which is all very much in-character for her?

[jtav]

I remember back in leak days, flemm had the idea of using it to illustrate organics becoming more like synthetics. She must make her offspring rather than birth them, like synthetics.

It's there for pity and to moralize. Which doesn't preclude the dossier saying some unfortunate things about women by making her job a substitute for more feminine pursuits.

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

hot_heart wrote...

Now I've caught up some more, I agree with what Taboo is saying. I don't think whoever wrote the dossier was coming at it from that angle, subconsciously or not.

I can't profess to be inside the writer's head but I imagine the thought process was to try and find some way to create sympathy for her, and there was a way that ties into the very thing that has always tripped her up mentally before, making the problem very tangible.

What is the one complaint that people have against Miranda if they don't talk to her? She's cold and she's a ****.

The infertility is a cheap shot, but I feel that it's there for sympathy, not malice.

People who didn't identify with her that way previously got upset. That's what's apprent to me at least.

That part of her has always been there, it simply manifested as being another part of the character, more so than before and people interpreted it as malicious.

That's just the way it is.

To a lot of people, Miranda is threatening to them because she is such a strong woman, and so effeminate while at it (it's why a lot of people didn't like Chuck. Sarah was the strong woman who was also enough of a girly girl that it confuses them because she's in the protector/mentor role). It scares them to have a girl, who is beautiful and attractive, and also smarter, stronger, and generally all around better than they are.

Another reason is because she (at first glance) represents the snobbish elite that looks down on the player and a lot of the players feel strongly against that because they think that she thinks she's above them and better than them. Most of them have never really had much success with women. That's why a lot of them go for Tali or Liara.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 15 août 2012 - 06:12 .

[hot_heart]

Oh, yeah, I think I brought it up ages ago, when we last discussed something like this, but I tend to believe Hanlon's razer applies:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

[krukow]

fiendishchicken wrote...
Another reason is because she (at first glance) represents the snobbish elite that looks down on the player and a lot of the players feel strongly against that because they think that she thinks she's above them and better than them. Most of them have never really had much success with women.

I got over that the first time I went on a mission and Miranda died 4 times.

God, squad members are so much more useless in ME2 than in ME3.  One of the really good changes...

[fiendishchicken]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

hot_heart wrote...

Now I've caught up some more, I agree with what Taboo is saying. I don't think whoever wrote the dossier was coming at it from that angle, subconsciously or not.

I can't profess to be inside the writer's head but I imagine the thought process was to try and find some way to create sympathy for her, and there was a way that ties into the very thing that has always tripped her up mentally before, making the problem very tangible.

What is the one complaint that people have against Miranda if they don't talk to her? She's cold and she's a ****.

The infertility is a cheap shot, but I feel that it's there for sympathy, not malice.

People who didn't identify with her that way previously got upset. That's what's apprent to me at least.

That part of her has always been there, it simply manifested as being another part of the character, more so than before and people interpreted it as malicious.

That's just the way it is.

To a lot of people, Miranda is threatening to them because she is such a strong woman, and so effeminine while at it (it's why a lot of people didn't like Chuck. Sarah was the strong woman who was also enough of a girly girl that it confuses them because she's in the protector/mentor role).

Another reason is because she (at first glance) represents the snobbish elite that looks down on the player and a lot of the players feel strongly against that because they think that she thinks she's above them and better than them. Most of them have never really had much success with women.

Speak for yourself. Johhny Depp's not dating Amber Heard anymore.

I AM.

Amber Heard is a twit. I'm not saying that out of anger or anything, she's had fine enough roles, she's just what hollywood wants her to be.

<_< I'll be sticking to Yvonne

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 15 août 2012 - 06:11 .

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

Oh, yeah, I think I brought it up ages ago, when we last discussed something like this, but I tend to believe Hanlon's razer applies:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Well, that's also doubtless true

The issue here is that it is fairly systematic. Some of it is just extremely non-obvious, and also poorly presented, to the point that quite a bit of it just creates a wtf? response.

For example, everybody looks at Jacob's content and sees a racist stereotype immediately. They're right, of course (it is). But that was accidental.

It's much more likely that this was intended to show that Jacob wants a normal family life (like every other human in the galaxy of course hahaha), and he couldn't have that with either Miranda or femshep because they were both too career-driven at the time (insufficiently focused on family).

Hence it was intended to be part of the "morality tale." it just doesn't register with people that way because in general they/we are not in tune with the worldview that is defining this.

Modifié par flemm, 15 août 2012 - 06:14 .

[Babi_Siha]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

But why?  What possible reason would they have to casting Miranda in a negative light?  There's nothing malicious about the implication that genetic engineering is not a perfect process, nor is it a negative character quality for Miranda to apparently be attempting to overcome that disability.  As for Mass Effect 3...I agree she should have had more of a role, but at no point in the ENTIRE GAME did I see Miranda being painted in a bad light.  

I'm not seeing where this is coming from.

About the infertility, that's up for interpretation, but considering the character butchering in ME3 I'd say it was an attempt to make people go for other options that could give Shepard a family. And she was sort of painted in a bad light, all she cared/talked about was Oriana, that's far from the character we met in ME2.

Taboo-XX wrote...

You have ZERO proof that this was intended as malicious.

It's known that Jay took advice from Weekes. 

Something happened that people didn't like and they interpreted it as malicious.

People need to accept it and move on.

I don't have any proof, but it's pretty clear that not only her, but every ME2 character were intentionally sidelined. Still, Mordin was vital to the genophage arc, the same with Legion for the conflict between quarians and geth, Thane saved Valern and Jack became a teacher at Grissom's academy.

Even if Miranda had more screentime than those, har character didn't really do anything for any plot, she was just there, not helping with anything. It's impossible not to think that they wanted to make Miranda a less complex character.

[hot_heart]

krukow wrote...
God, squad members are so much more useless in ME2 than in ME3.  One of the really good changes...

I never really noticed a difference, usually because I was a vanguard zoom-zoom-kill-kll but I know Liara died four times on Sur'Kesh! I liked one mission where I left Vega completely on his own and he seemed to do just fine. Probably because he's pretty much krogan combat-wise (unfortunately, not in other ways!) Though that does support the fact that perhaps they are 'useless' in another sense of the word.

I have a fond memory of one time during the Haestrom mission in ME2, when Miranda was aggroing the geth colossus and fighting enemies completely on her own, no problem.

As with AI, it is just very random...

[LanceSolous13]

Actually, I wouldn't say Ashley isn't bi from her family and them being 'conservative' or something. The Writers have said that the stigma is almost non-existant at this point so I doubt its that. Does she really need a further reason than she just simply she isn't into women?

[hot_heart]

Babi_Siha wrote...
I don't have any proof, but it's pretty clear that not only her, but every ME2 character were intentionally sidelined. Still, Mordin was vital to the genophage arc, the same with Legion for the conflict between quarians and geth, Thane saved Valern and Jack became a teacher at Grissom's academy.

Even if Miranda had more screentime than those, har character didn't really do anything for any plot, she was just there, not helping with anything. It's impossible not to think that they wanted to make Miranda a less complex character.

Again, I doubt it was malice on their part. They just had no idea how they were going to fit everthing in when they took a whole year less than they should have in making the game.

Modifié par hot_heart, 15 août 2012 - 06:17 .

[lillitheris]

^^ I think that’s a little silly, to be honest. They just didn’t have the time to include everyone. Not that that’s a particularly good reason, mind, but I don’t think it was done with malice.

Edit: great minds etc. <3

Modifié par lillitheris, 15 août 2012 - 06:18 .

[krukow]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Actually, I wouldn't say Ashley isn't bi from her family and them being 'conservative' or something. The Writers have said that the stigma is almost non-existant at this point so I doubt its that. Does she really need a further reason than she just simply she isn't into women?

But that's unpossible!!

Yeah, that's pretty much it.  People like Ashley/Garrus/Jacob are straight, Kelly/Allers/Kaidan are bi, Cortez/Traynor are gay.  People are what they are, and BSN just needs to get over it.

Modifié par krukow, 15 août 2012 - 06:19 .

[Taboo]

Babi_Siha wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You have ZERO proof that this was intended as malicious.

It's known that Jay took advice from Weekes. 

Something happened that people didn't like and they interpreted it as malicious.

People need to accept it and move on.

I don't have any proof, but it's pretty clear that not only her, but every ME2 character were intentionally sidelined. Still, Mordin was vital to the genophage arc, the same with Legion for the conflict between quarians and geth, Thane saved Valern and Jack became a teacher at Grissom's academy.

Even if Miranda had more screentime than those, har character didn't really do anything for any plot, she was just there, not helping with anything. It's impossible not to think that they wanted to make Miranda a less complex character.

Again, you can't prove that. All you know is that she was sidelined to make way for other people. That isn't uncommon.

And when that happens a character trait is used to further along the cameo or whatever. She's still out being Dirty Harry. You have no true contextual insight into what she was doing before she talks to Shepard, but you can guess based upon what she says and what appears in other media, namely the iPhone app.

It blows, but that's the way it is.

[wright1978]

Taboo-XX wrote...


What is the one complaint that people have against Miranda if they don't talk to her? She's cold and she's a ****.

The infertility is a cheap shot, but I feel that it's there for sympathy, not malice.

So they went with turning her into a tragic wretch so that people who dislike her will feel a pang of sorrow at the tragic death angle of the infertile woman who only cares about her sister that they wanted her arc to be. Can't have her espousing any of her opinions from ME2 as that might make people who dislike her less sympathetic to her tragic death.