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[Aliqaiser]

 Hey Guys, sorry to jump in your on-going Discussion. but I was looking for some opinions from you guys. 

With the Mysterious Relic 25% completed, and with so many possibilities to push the plot forward. we decided to ask a hand ful of question's. just to see what you the viewer thinks about it, as loyal Fan feed-backs are very important to us.

Question 1- If you ever get to see Kai-Leng again, what are the things you are most eager to see about him, and how do you want him to play out, if Bad-ass, How Bad-ass are we talking about?

Question 2- Something new being mentioned is always a plus in a universe as rich as ME. Till what extenet you can enjoy it and digest it. what is your end limit, and if you have any ideal contribution for the comic, please feel free to share it.

And further more, if we like your Idea, we will personally reach forward to you, for more details. Thank you.

And before going I though to share my most recent work, Hope you like it.
Plus for Miranda Fans, I have Miranda coming up next.

MASS EFFECT- Faust Lithograph.

 
http://aliqaiser.dev...graph-321393007 

Modifié par Aliqaiser, 15 août 2012 - 11:31 .

[Taboo]

I sit there and ogle your art work for quite a while. Needless to say one of the first things I look for is just that, how it looks. Your color palette is inspired.

I don't have an opinion on Kai Leng really. If he's going to be the badass from the books I suppose that might work if you work in logically.

Also, it's my impression (and it's evidenced in one of the panels) that this Miranda was romanced. That being said, I always opined that it would be nice to see more than one mention of the relationship for the simple reason that it will tie everyone back into the events of the past game if only for a moment.

I'm still waiting to figure out what happened to Faust.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
She's flawed like everyone else. She has all the exact same limitations that you and I do. All she has against you and I are better genes.

Seeking purpose is the point of all life. Why am I here? What am I supposed to do?

She parallells a Synthetic, even you and I do at some point. But isn't the same.

Agreed, precisely: it isn't the same, but it is a bit closer than would be the case for a "standard" organic. So, Miranda is like a bridge or step between typical organic life and synthetic life. It's in that sense also that the character has a "transhuman" element. Which isn't to say she isn't human, but she is a different type of human.

Her existential issues aren't really that different than for a standard human, but they are more... direct or literal.

Everybody needs to "kill their father" in a sense, symbolically.

Miranda has to actually do it

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 12:03 .

[Taboo]

I don't know.

She was abused as a child. Personality quirks come with that. She is not the first person to be abused and rise above their parents. Social isolation, the inability to connect. All those stem from her past. It's an entirely human story. Europeans have been doing this is art cinema for a long, long time.

She reminds me of characters from seventies cinema. Not as emotionally dead mind you but entirely incapable of touching another being. People like Michelangelo Antonioni spent their lives make films about people like her.

This story isn't particularly new. It just happens to be put together in a manner most fantastic.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 16 août 2012 - 12:32 .

[Lawrence0294]

Sifr1449 wrote...


Looks around for Miranda in the thread, wondering where she has gone?

And there she is 



Shepard finding her like this could've been a cool surprise

Modifié par kratos0294, 16 août 2012 - 12:42 .

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
This story isn't particularly new. It just happens to be put together in a manner most fantastic.

Well, that is part of what science fiction is about. There are themes that one can find elsewhere, but with an added dimension.

In Miranda's case, the added dimension is, among other things, the transhuman element. There are other things happening, but that is part of it.

It would seem it is in Miranda's nature to always rebel against those who would try to control her. That is why she has responded well, overall, to her difficult upbringing.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 12:53 .

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
This story isn't particularly new. It just happens to be put together in a manner most fantastic.

Well, that is part of what science fiction is about. There are themes that one can find elsewhere, but with an added dimension.

In Miranda's case, the added dimension is, among other things, the transhuman element. There are other things happening, but that is part of it.

At the end of the day she is still limited. She has better genes. That's really all it is. She isn't super human.

That's what seperates us from Synthetics. We are faulty, misguided, and capable of immense error.

She has never had validation from anything other than that before. She was nothing more than the creation of a narcissist. That's why she works the way she does. She believes it gives her purpose and it certainly does, but it does nothing for her as a human. At no point in her twenty years in Cerberus has a single person given her the attetion she needs.

Her genetic tailoring is an aspect of the character. At the end of the day it does nothing to help her connect to the world and live in it. No amount of sciene can make you connect. No amount of genes can fix things.

What is the point of living fifty more years if they're lonely ones?

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

At the end of the day she is still limited. She has better genes. That's really all it is. She isn't super human.

Transhuman isn't really a synonym of "superhuman." It doesn't mean she is infaillible, or non human. It just means she is an artificially designed organic, with genetic enhancements.

Of course she still has regular human needs. There is no contradiction here.

Edit:
I wouldn't say that she thinks her tailoring gives her purpose. It's more that she wants to have a purpose so that her gifts have meaning.

She says something like "My father wanted these enhancements to serve his own selfish purposes, but I wanted them to serve the greater good." That is why her work is important to her.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 01:26 .

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

At the end of the day she is still limited. She has better genes. That's really all it is. She isn't super human.

Transhuman isn't really a synonym of "superhuman." It doesn't mean she is infaillible, or non human. It just means she is an artificially designed organic, with genetic enhancements.

Of course she still has regular human needs. There is no contradiction here.

Nothing has really been accomplished here. All Henry Lawson has proven is that even with genetic tailoring you can't make much of anything even remotely resembling perfect.

There is no "Trans" anything. You will have achieved this when we are no longer plauged by basic human issues. Not even Synthesis solves this issue.

You wish to improve your body? Fine. But at the end of the day it doesn't do much of anything to improve the human condition.

That was always the issue I raised with writers like Asimov. They were full of great ideas but were entirely incapable of understanding basic aspects of emotion.

Stanley Kubrick had the same issue in his films. Full of wonder. Emotionally sterile.

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

At the end of the day she is still limited. She has better genes. That's really all it is. She isn't super human.

Transhuman isn't really a synonym of "superhuman." It doesn't mean she is infaillible, or non human. It just means she is an artificially designed organic, with genetic enhancements.

Of course she still has regular human needs. There is no contradiction here.

Nothing has really been accomplished here. All Henry Lawson has proven is that even with genetic tailoring you can't make much of anything even remotely resembling perfect.

There is no "Trans" anything. You will have achieved this when we are no longer plauged by basic human issues. Not even Synthesis solves this issue.

You wish to improve your body? Fine. But at the end of the day it doesn't do much of anything to improve the human condition.

That was always the issue I raised with writers like Asimov. They were full of great ideas but were entirely incapable of understanding basic aspects of emotion.

Stanley Kubrick had the same issue in his films. Full of wonder. Emotionally sterile.

OT, but you know, I thought AI had some great emotion, especially at the (non spielberg) ending.  Screw the robot aliens.

And I don't think miri counts as transhuman.  Her creation came through unique methods, but she's still completely human.  Nothing about her has changed.  It's just been refined/maximized.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Nothing has really been accomplished here. All Henry Lawson has proven is that even with genetic tailoring you can't make much of anything even remotely resembling perfect.

There is no "Trans" anything. You will have achieved this when we are no longer plauged by basic human issues. Not even Synthesis solves this issue.

Well, speaking in general terms, transhumanism can refer to transcending normal human limitations, yes.

Henry designed Miranda to have enhanced abilities, and in that he succeeded. He never designed her to be "perfect," that is a term that others sometimes apply to Miranda, but never one that she applies to herself.

However, one of the strong points of Miranda's character is that she allows for, or can allow for, an intelligent exploration of these issues. The point is not to say, "Genetic engineering is great" anymore than the point should be to say "Genetic engineering is bad."

There are good and bad aspects, potentially, and they should both be explored.

krukow wrote...
And I don't think miri counts as transhuman.
 Her creation came through unique methods, but she's still completely
human.  Nothing about her has changed.  It's just been
refined/maximized.

Transhuman doesn't mean "no longer human," at least not always. It can also mean "enhanced," which is Miranda's case.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 01:36 .

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

OT, but you know, I thought AI had some great emotion, especially at the (non spielberg) ending.  Screw the robot aliens.

And I don't think miri counts as transhuman.  Her creation came through unique methods, but she's still completely human.  Nothing about her has changed.  It's just been refined/maximized.

You do realize that AI was a Kubrick project before he died? That it's dedicated to him?

Spielberg is an example of too much emotion. He over exerts and manipulates the audience sometimes.

But that doesn't mean he hasn't made great films. I myself am looking forward to the new restoration of Jaws.

You want balance. Emotion and Intellect should flow together to create a whole.

[krukow]

That was my point. I thought Kubrick actually got some emotion across in AI. The "real" ending is heartbreaking.

And yeah, Spielberg hasn't been able to do emotion well since the 80's. He got old. Still better than Lucas...

[krukow]

flemm wrote...

krukow wrote...
And I don't think miri counts as transhuman.
 Her creation came through unique methods, but she's still completely
human.  Nothing about her has changed.  It's just been
refined/maximized.

Transhuman doesn't mean "no longer human," at least not always. It can also mean "enhanced," which is Miranda's case.

Transhuman has to be enhanced to be beyond just human (or Barry Bonds was transhuman), and I don't think Miranda is.  She's maximized and designed, but still just human.  Just a perfect version of one (or one person's idea of so).  Just like grunt isn't transkrogan.

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

flemm wrote...

krukow wrote...
And I don't think miri counts as transhuman.
 Her creation came through unique methods, but she's still completely
human.  Nothing about her has changed.  It's just been
refined/maximized.

Transhuman doesn't mean "no longer human," at least not always. It can also mean "enhanced," which is Miranda's case.

Transhuman has to be enhanced to be beyond just human (or Barry Bonds was transhuman), and I don't think Miranda is.  She's maximized and designed, but still just human.  Just a perfect version of one (or one person's idea of so).  Just like grunt isn't transkrogan.

That's how I see it. Nothing she has is unavailable to the rest of the gene pool.

She WAS made from them after all.

She's just a human with good genes.

[flemm]

krukow wrote...

Transhuman has to be enhanced to be beyond just human (or Barry Bonds was transhuman), and I don't think Miranda is.  She's maximized and designed, but still just human.  Just a perfect version of one (or one person's idea of so).  Just like grunt isn't transkrogan.

Well, what you're referring to is usually called "post-human," that is to say a condition that is beyond human. Maybe in synthesis there is a post-human state.

"Transhuman" usually refers to an intermediary state between the human and the post-human, including enhancements and such things, which applies to Miranda. Sometimes it is even used for people who are just trying to maximize their abilities, without the aid of science.

You could say that barry bonds was transhuman in a very limited sense, actually.

This is just vocabulary/semantics, but Miranda is definitely transhuman. Not "post-human," but definitely transhuman, whether or not one admires her genetic tailoring.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 01:46 .

[krukow]

flemm wrote...

krukow wrote...

Transhuman has to be enhanced to be beyond just human (or Barry Bonds was transhuman), and I don't think Miranda is.  She's maximized and designed, but still just human.  Just a perfect version of one (or one person's idea of so).  Just like grunt isn't transkrogan.

Well, what you're referring to is usually called "post-human," that is to say a condition that is beyond human. Maybe in synthesis there is a post-human state.

"Transhuman" usually refers to an intermediary state between the human and the post-human, including enhancements and such things, which applies to Miranda. Sometimes it is even used for people who are just trying to maximize their abilities, without the aid of science.

You could say that barry binds was transhuman is a very limited sense, actually.

but at the point you're describing, they still cease to be truly human.  They've become, even slightly, something else. 

Richard Dawkins actually talks about this in his latest book on evolution.  We know the difference between bald and not bald, but at what point do you call someone bald?  Which hair folicle is the breaking point, that's a lot harder to tell.  Just like it's hard to tell where exactly in the chain one species has evolved into the next.  So I can see your arguement for Miranda being human and transhuman at the same time.  It's an arguement of finite gradients.  I just don't quite agree, I think she's still human, just the apex of humanity (you would have to be enhanced past her to start the transhuman slide).

Also, I'm religious and don't like Richard Dawkins.  So there's that I guess...

[flemm]

krukow wrote...

but at the point you're describing, they still cease to be truly human.  They've become, even slightly, something else. 

Richard Dawkins actually talks about this in his latest book on evolution.  We know the difference between bald and not bald, but at what point do you call someone bald?  Which hair folicle is the breaking point, that's a lot harder to tell.  Just like it's hard to tell where exactly in the chain one species has evolved into the next.  So I can see your arguement for Miranda being human and transhuman at the same time.  It's an arguement of finite gradients.  I just don't quite agree, I think she's still human, just the apex of humanity (you would have to be enhanced past her to start the transhuman slide).

Well, I think that's what the "trans" aspect generally is intended to suggest: like transition, or in transit. It is part of the finite gradients you are referring to.

Obviously there are some tricky issues here, which I don't pretend to be able to resolve.

The term "human" can certainly still apply to Miranda. While at the same time she can be understood as transhuman.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 01:51 .

[Taboo]

She's nothing more than someone with good genes. She was made to be just that. An amalgamation of desired traits.

There is no mention of transhumanism at all. That's something people here have assigned to her.

She is not the base point for the next stage of evolution.

[LanceSolous13]

Well, We seem to have added quite a few pages over the last few hours. Not going to attenpt catching up on my phone. Lol

So, I was wondering two things today. For the sake of keeping discussion alive, I'll start with one.

Do you think Miranda is fluent in a different language? If so, What language(s)?

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
There is no mention of transhumanism at all. That's something people here have assigned to her.

Genetic enhancements are a pretty important feature of transhumanist ideas. As are medical advances such as those the Lazarus Project can be understood to represent.

They don't have to use the term in the game. It naturally applies.

That doesn't necessarily mean that she represents the next stage of evolution. "Transhuman" doesn't necessarily imply that. It's just another way of saying she is genetically engineered and therefore is associated with some of the issues raised by that.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 02:00 .

[kaymarierose]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Well, We seem to have added quite a few pages over the last few hours. Not going to attenpt catching up on my phone. Lol

So, I was wondering two things today. For the sake of keeping discussion alive, I'll start with one.

Do you think Miranda is fluent in a different language? If so, What language(s)?

Polish. 

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
There is no mention of transhumanism at all. That's something people here have assigned to her.

Genetic enhancements are a pretty important feature of transhumanist ideas. As as medical advances like the Lazarus Project can be understood to represent.

They don't have to use the term in the game. It naturally applies.

And? It also has some embodiment of fascist ideals. That fits too. Does that mean it applies? I don't think so.

People do this **** now with dogs. They breed to get desired traits. That's all she is, an amalgamation of desired traits.

Henry didn't make her for transhumanist goals. He made her to be a part of his dynasty. A human dog almost. He certainly treated her like one.

I fail to see why something that has nothing to do with the character explictely is a reason for liking them.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 16 août 2012 - 02:03 .

[LanceSolous13]

I think Miranda would be fluent in French, English, Spanish, and German for the sake of her employment.

[Taboo]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I think Miranda would be fluent in French, English, Spanish, and German for the sake of her employment.

Dawg they have universal translaters now.

There is no reason to speak any other language.