82210 réponses à ce sujet

[LanceSolous13]

Miranda: "You hog the bed all the time!"
Shepard: "I can't help myself when I'm sleeping! Cut me some slack!"
Miranda: "You always want me to cut you some slack! Like when you were supposed to do dishes the last night!"
Shepard: "The Yahg just started waging inter-galactic war on all other species out there! I needed take that call from the Council and Hackett!"

Family Councilor: *hesitantly whispering* "Are they always like this?"
Oriana: "Ohhhhhhhhh yeeeeeaaaaah."

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yeah, I wanted to comment on this. A Miranda fanbook of the kind we're putting together would be a nice incentive, wouldn't it? And perhaps it's best to send it before any decision is made.

Well, sort of. But... After all the support on the forums and twitter over the last year, the explosion after the script leak, the group fanbook, the posters, etc. etc.... I don't really see them getting the fan book, and suddenly saying: well, let's put Miranda in a DLC.

In a sense, I guess I think it's more likely that any decision has been made, and might depend, if anything, mostly at this point on whether SP DLC for the game sells well at all (they won't really know until they start trying to sell some).

So, we'll see. I'm going to continue getting it ready in any event.

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

LOTSB worked because it followed up on a story element introduced earlier in the game.  What would the plot for Miranda be?  What threads could be followed up on?  Cerberus is pretty much already completed in-game, a cerberus mission for her would be extraneous. 

Now if she were allowed to go to cronos in EDI's place...

Yes. It would need to be justified within the context of the narrative. However the thing that they revealed in the EC was that they can change more than I thought they could.

With DLC installed they can add a section with her. The game takes place over the course of several months. I seriously doubt Miranda was sitting there typing on a console.Do a DLC pertaining to spy work or some such. That would please a lot of people here.

And hey, add a romance scene for the people who want that too.

Everyone wins!

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 16 août 2012 - 04:09 .

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Yes. It would need to be justified within the context of the narrative. However the thing that they revealed in the EC was that they can change more than I thought they could.

With DLC installed they can add a section with her. The game takes place over the course of several months. I seriously doubt Miranda was sitting there typing on a console.Do a DLC pertaining to spy work or some such. That would please a lot of people here.

And hey, add a romance scene for the people who want that too.

Everyone wins!

Seriously, they retconned soooo much of the destroy ending with like 3 or 4 tweaks...

[jtav]

And flemm's right about what I meant about LOTSB. Here was my basic reaction to the dossier.

"Miranda's infertile? Hmm. I never wanted kids. Wait, why would Bioware put that in there?" (beat) Oh, sh*t. They wouldn't do that, would they?"

And they did.

[LanceSolous13]

What if Miranda were to track down her father and we have an espionage mission in similar vein of Kasumi's LM? That will forever be one of ME2's highlights for me.

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

And flemm's right about what I meant about LOTSB. Here was my basic reaction to the dossier.

"Miranda's infertile? Hmm. I never wanted kids. Wait, why would Bioware put that in there?" (beat) Oh, sh*t. They wouldn't do that, would they?"

And they did.

I thought you were upset because it put genetic engineering in a bad light?

What IS the issue? I'm merely curious.

[krukow]

jtav wrote...

And flemm's right about what I meant about LOTSB. Here was my basic reaction to the dossier.

"Miranda's infertile? Hmm. I never wanted kids. Wait, why would Bioware put that in there?" (beat) Oh, sh*t. They wouldn't do that, would they?"

And they did.

You're not Miranda.  That's a silly statement.

And what does Miranda wanting to be able to have kids (a completely normal thing for a woman) have to do with her being sidelined in ME3?

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I thought you were upset because it put genetic engineering in a bad light?

What IS the issue? I'm merely curious.

Well, to the extent I can answer this, it's because in ME2 Miranda is a balanced character: she has a variety of interests and concerns, including her job and then some family stuff (which is also important, but not the only thing that is important to her).

One thing that jtav was able to deduce from the dossier was that intent was to turn Miranda into more of a female stereotype in that her personal concerns were going to be deemed healthy, whereas her professional goals were going to be deemed unhealthy.

(Which, considering she led a medical team to rebuild the individual who is going to basically save the galaxy, and helped lead a team beyond the Omega 4 relay to save a lot lives, is a little strange.)

That is basically what happened. The best one can really say is that maybe the lack of focus on her professional side is a result of her reduced role. But whatever, it is what it is.

krukow wrote...

And what does Miranda wanting to be able
to have kids (a completely normal thing for a woman) have to do with her
being sidelined in ME3?

Of course it is normal. That is not the issue. For some reason the conversation always tends to swing that way whenever this is discussed.

The issue is that her other (non-personal) concerns tend to disappear, and that is one reason why she has a reduced role in the game. OR, if you prefer, she has a reduced role and so her other concerns are not addressed. Whichever.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 04:28 .

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I thought you were upset because it put genetic engineering in a bad light?

What IS the issue? I'm merely curious.

Well, to the extent I can answer this, it's because in ME2 Miranda is a balanced character: she has a variety of interests and concerns, including her job and then some family stuff.

One thing that jtav was able to deduce from the dossier was that intent was to turn Miranda into more of a female stereotype in that her personal concerns were going to be deemed healthy, whereas her prodessional goals were going to be deemed unhealthy.

That is basically what happened. The best one can really say is that maybe the lack of focus on her professional side is result of her reduced role. But whatever, it is what it is.

Assigning your personal feelings on things like children is not acceptable in this case. Her professional side was lessened because of her reduced role in the plot. This happened to all of the ME2 characters.

One trait was chosen to string her along that's all. Everything about her personally was wrapped up. Her sister, her father, her relationship with Shepard.

It isn't so much a stereotype as it is a way of finishing an arc with the least amount of effort.

This happens in films too. People are killed off, or they become aloof because the writers didn't want to deal with them anymore.

Walters did not write her into the Cerberus plot line. As such she was put into a role that fit one aspect of her character, her sister.

That way they could still include her and finish her story, much to the detriment of the character.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
That way they could still include her and finish her story, much to the detriment of the character.

You can look at it that way, yes: they needed to simplify the character in order to deal with her story in a reduced role.

Cause and effect is a bit hazy. Either way, it was unfortunate.

One reason I would like more content is that it would naturally rectify the imbalance in all likelihood.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 04:27 .

[krukow]

flemm wrote...

krukow wrote...

And what does Miranda wanting to be able
to have kids (a completely normal thing for a woman) have to do with her
being sidelined in ME3?

Of course it is normal. That is not the issue. For some reason the conversation always tends to swing that way whenever this is discussed.

The issue is that her other (non-personal) concerns tend to disappear, and that is one reason why she has a reduced role in the game. OR, if you prefer, she has a reduced role and so her other concerns are not addressed. Whichever.

It is the issue.  Read what was written.
"I never wanted kids"  Jtav is explicitly reacting to Miranda wanting kids and extrapolating character assassination from that alone.  I'm not trying to trash Jtav, but I am slightly offended at the idea that a woman wanting kids in someways leads to her not being professional.

In LOTSB, it's revealed Miranda wants kids.  In ME3, Miranda is sidelined.  These are both true, but they are unrelated.

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
That way they could still include her and finish her story, much to the detriment of the character.

You can look at it that way, yes: they needed to simplify the character in order to deal with her story in a reduced role.

Cause and effect is a bit hazy. Either way, it was unfortunate.

One reason I would like more content is that it would naturally rectify the imbalance in all likelihood.

Yes, it would also hopefully give more insight into what she's been doing, as I'm sure we're all curious. I'd like to see context as to what she's been doing to get the information she has. That way those gaps can be filled as well.

[flemm]

krukow wrote...
It is the issue.  Read what was written.
"I never wanted kids"  Jtav is explicitly reacting to Miranda wanting kids and extrapolating character assassination from that alone.

That is being unfair to her. Believe me, I have discussed this issue with her before.

The two things may be unrelated, that is harder to say, but anyway they both happened at once.

They should be unrelated.

On that I agree. In the event, they were not, for whatever reason. Possibly just an unfortunate coincidence, but whatever. It is something I would like to see improved.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 04:32 .

[LanceSolous13]

I would like to point out that, if Miranda gets a LotSB style DLC, The other Romance Fandoms will be pining for one of their own. Not that I blame them considering how Jacob, Thane, and Jack get shafted out of the plot entirely. Miranda at least appears in a Priority Mission.

[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

krukow wrote...
It is the issue.  Read what was written.
"I never wanted kids"  Jtav is explicitly reacting to Miranda wanting kids and extrapolating character assassination from that alone.

That is being unfair to her. Believe me, I have discussed this issue with her before.

She's said it once before as well. Using a certain word to describe it. One that shouldn't have been used.

I haven't seen a legitimate criticism of her wanting a child. I believe it is entirely unfair to apply your personal feelings on the matter. jtav does not want children. Miranda does. At no point is that a reason for criticism.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
I haven't seen a legitimate criticism of her wanting a child.

That is not the main criticism.

The main criticism is that her desires for a family should not replace or be portrayed as incompatible with her other concerns. And *that* is a legitimate criticism.

So much so that everybody immediately says: "That is not what is happening. She just doesn't have enough content." People do not want to believe it because it would be dumb.

And it may be coincidental, but it is one reason why more content would be extremely desirable.

jtav (and some others) have also said that they would prefer that the decision to have children or express a desire for them should be *optional* in the game, i.e. they don't want to be forced into it. That is a reasonable request from a roleplay point of view, but a somewhat separate issue.

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 04:41 .

[jtav]

And if I may step in to defend myself:

One of the ways fiction is different from real life is that characters are designed. I read romance novels. This doesn't tell you a lot about me. It just happens to be my particular taste. But if a character reads them, I can infer a great deal because the author chose to give the character that trait. The LOTSB dossier gives Miranda a constellation of traits that typically belong to a particular character type--that of the professionally successful woman who craves the traditional family.

[krukow]

jtav wrote...

And if I may step in to defend myself:

One of the ways fiction is different from real life is that characters are designed. I read romance novels. This doesn't tell you a lot about me. It just happens to be my particular taste. But if a character reads them, I can infer a great deal because the author chose to give the character that trait. The LOTSB dossier gives Miranda a constellation of traits that typically belong to a particular character type--that of the professionally successful woman who craves the traditional family.

Miranda is trying to get knocked up by some dude she's never met and won't talk to again.

You're reaching.

She just wants to have a child.

[flemm]

krukow wrote...

Miranda is trying to get knocked up by some dude she's never met and won't talk to again.

You're reaching.

She just wants to have a child.

I think at best one can say that the direction they took with Miranda post-ME2 flirts with some stereotypes in a way that is unfortunate. Especially with a character like Miranda, where really there was no need for that.

Some of it may be unintentional, or simply a result of a reduced role.

But I can see why it bothers jtav. Some of it also bothers me (though not really the part about wanting children).

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 04:48 .

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

And if I may step in to defend myself:

One of the ways fiction is different from real life is that characters are designed. I read romance novels. This doesn't tell you a lot about me. It just happens to be my particular taste. But if a character reads them, I can infer a great deal because the author chose to give the character that trait. The LOTSB dossier gives Miranda a constellation of traits that typically belong to a particular character type--that of the professionally successful woman who craves the traditional family.

And?

This has nothing to do with romance novels. This applies to a lot of films, books and even music. David Bowie sang about it, Iggy Pop sang about it, Johhny Thunders sang about it. Even Bob Dylan sang about it.

This was quite common in films like The Passenger, Identification of a Woman, Naked and The Beekeeper.

The issue is wanting to connect to rest of society.

Some Weird Sin.

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
That way they could still include her and finish her story, much to the detriment of the character.

You can look at it that way, yes: they needed to simplify the character in order to deal with her story in a reduced role.

Cause and effect is a bit hazy. Either way, it was unfortunate.

One reason I would like more content is that it would naturally rectify the imbalance in all likelihood.

Sorry i don't accept her reduced role as an acceptable excuse for the butchering of the professional side of her characterisation. They could easily have done justice to her regarding Cerberus and still have the mainstay of her role being Oriana/Sanctuary based.

[krukow]

flemm wrote...

krukow wrote...

Miranda is trying to get knocked up by some dude she's never met and won't talk to again.

You're reaching.

She just wants to have a child.

I think at best one can say that the direction they took with Miranda post-ME2 flirts with some stereotypes in a way that is unfortunate. Especially with a character like Miranda, where really there was no need for that.

Some of it may be unintentional, or simply a result of a reduced role.

But I can see why it bothers jtav. Some of it also bothers me (though not really the part about wanting children).

But only if you read into LOTSB what you didn't like about ME3.  There is nothing in the actual dossier that paints Miranda in a bad way (unless you think she should use a donor bank instead).  Remember, the dossiers were there to give us insight into character traits we didn't already know about.  To add to the character.  We already know about Miranda's professional side.  It's everywhere in the game from begining to end.  The desire for a child is something we didn't already know.  It's a new thing, and it makes her even more fleshed out.

It's like you're trying to divorce the dossier from the rest of the character, when it's really just a small part of a larger character.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

And?

And there's no reason why the two should be incompatible. Or that Miranda should suddenly become a tragic figure because she has decided she wants a family.

Everybody knows this. Which is why everybody immediately says, "well, of course they are compatible, Miranda just doesn't have enough content."

wright1978 wrote...
Sorry i don't accept her reduced role as an acceptable excuse for the butchering of the professional side of
her characterisation. They could easily have done justice to her regarding Cerberus and still have the mainstay of her role being Oriana/Sanctuary based.

I agree, obviously

Modifié par flemm, 16 août 2012 - 04:54 .

[enayasoul]

kaymarierose wrote...

So here is the link to my Deviant Art page, all full sized art is available for download there.

As a bonus for being on BSN and being the kind and lovely people you are, I have an extra piece for you.

Awwwww!  Simply beautiful! You've made my day!   Love them all!  :happy:  It's true, they should have a boy first!