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[lillitheris]

BringBackNihlus wrote...
I know I'd be doing my damndest to find my sister if I was in that situation. How could you even fight a war when that's weighing on your mind constantly?

You do realize that basically everyone has family somewhere under threat from the Reapers, right? With this war going on and stuff?

[jtav]

Miranda is far too high up for her (or her fans) to plead ignorance of Cerberus. Part of the problem is that Cerberus shifted from space IRA to space N*zis. You could support the ideal as stated in the manifesto while deploring their methods. ME3 Cerberus is fit only to be eradicated.

[Babi_Siha]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

I'm sure Miranda would be so caught up in saving Orianna that everything else would took a back seat, including racing across the galaxy with Shepard. I know I'd be doing my damndest to find my sister if I was in that situation. How could you even fight a war when that's weighing on your mind constantly?

Woman, actually. And how could she fight a war? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the lives of billions outweight the life of one sibling. But if you think being selfish is the right attitude then I won't argue with you.

[krukow]

lillitheris wrote...

krukow wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

krukow…

I find it weird that so many gamers would dislike Miranda for being a
member of Cerberus.  I don't like cerberus (I find their ME3 portrayal
not that different from their ME1, just larger), but I see her as one of
the people who were trying to do good in a bad organization if that
makes sense?

I don’t really want to get into That Discussion, but try this for size: substitute ‘Cerberus’ with ‘KKK’, or ‘Stormfront’, or whatever.

That’s why.

Now, it’s not inconceivable to think that maybe they actually are trying to do good, but it seems the less likely option. (It’s also somewhat of a writing failure to not address it.)

I don't think the KKK is a fair comparison because you join that group SPECIFICALLY because you hate, and want to harm, a different type of person than you.

No, it’s actually pretty accurate. If you’re interested, you can find various ‘mission statements’ and whatnot that explain that the KKK only wishes to ‘protect the interests’ and ‘do good in the community’ etc.

And, you know, there is that whole thing about doing terrorist stuff.

Hmmm, you're right.  From the inside, that's what they may actually think about those groups.  Weird...

I guess I can serperate the person from the organization if the person's personal reasons and their actions are good enough.  I really think Miranda thought she was helping to forward humanity (and not at the expense of other aliens).  Though, again, this is like a few days ago when I asked everyone what Miri's opinion of the Admiral cerberus murdered would be (that was the straw for me.  Cerberus is evil and I was out as soon as I could).

Truth is, I don't get into the extended universe as much as others do (if it didn't happen on screen, I don't care), so I guess I just don't know if Miranda was involved with the nasty stuff, so I don't judge her for it.

Total run-on sentence there.

[Asakawa]

krukow wrote...

'd!

Back on topic:

I find it weird that so many gamers would dislike Miranda for being a member of Cerberus.  I don't like cerberus (I find their ME3 portrayal not that different from their ME1, just larger), but I see her as one of the people who were trying to do good in a bad organization if that makes sense?  She clearly doesn't retain cerberus loyalty...

and it's not like the Alliance is also a saint... and eeeeeeeeveryone seems to be okay about the Alliance...

i find it rather disturbing that Shep is a ally lapdog on ME3..

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I understand what you mean. I don’t really think it‘s controversial enough. It’s not addressed sufficiently, which allows these “they’re really nice people” headcanons. Actually owning it brings a lot into the character.

I think in ME2 it's fine. Miranda doesn't hide from the reality of what Cerberus is, she just has a certain view of it, and what it should be.

I disagree with that. Why does she have this certain view, whatever it is? Why hasn’t it meant anything before? If she doesn’t believe in the mission at all, is she just willing to overlook atrocities so long as they further her goals, whatever they are?

Edit: to clarify, these arent so much ‘accusations’ as things that should have been addressed more. Or should be in headcanon at least.

Modifié par lillitheris, 17 août 2012 - 08:50 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Miranda is far too high up for her (or her fans) to plead ignorance of Cerberus.

Well, why would they when even the character doesn't? On the other hand, it's plausible, and even likely, that she doesn't have direct knowledge of everything.

lillitheris wrote...
I disagree with that. Why does she have this certain view, whatever it is? Why hasn’t it meant anything before? If she doesn’t believe in the mission at all, is she just willing to overlook atrocities so long as they further her goals, whatever they are?

Well, she explains what she thinks in some detail.

We all know the writers deliberately changed what Cerberus was supposed to originally be. So, Miranda (and some other characters) are responsable for presenting a view that didn't exist before because... it didn't exist before

Modifié par flemm, 17 août 2012 - 08:49 .

[LanceSolous13]

HOLY CRAP! Ashley was.....wow in that scene.... D:

[Asakawa]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda is far too high up for her (or her fans) to plead ignorance of Cerberus.

Well, why would they when even the character doesn't? On the other hand, it's plausible, and even likely, that she doesn't have direct knowledge of everything.

it's pretty clear in the novels that TIM selects pretty much what kind of information is given and allowed to each asset. He has Miranda's trust and her competence. She knows a few things that to her seem like she knows truly a lot. But she also has character. It's like taking her to Jack's loyalty mission: "They kept children here? Oh my god..." or something like that.

[krukow]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

HOLY CRAP! Ashley was.....wow in that scene.... D:

Ashley is a BAMF.  Do NOT cross her.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Miranda is far too high up for her (or her fans) to plead ignorance of Cerberus. Part of the problem is that Cerberus shifted from space IRA to space N*zis. You could support the ideal as stated in the manifesto while deploring their methods. ME3 Cerberus is fit only to be eradicated.

Indeed. I find the KKK comparison totally inappropriate ME2 Cerberus. There are quite a few smart people in Cerberus who aren't racists or suchlike and just want to give humanity a leg up. Take Brynn and her people. That face of the organization is just as real as the one represented by Kai Leng. By her own statements, Miranda is one who represents the non-racist face. Even TIM is eclectic enough that he recommends people from multiple species for Shepard's team in ME2. On the other hand, he does nothing to discourage excesses like on Pragia or Aite.

And then it all goes to hell in ME3. It's appropriate for Miranda to not be with them anymore, but she should reflect on what Cerberus could have been, had more people like her - or Brynn - been in it.

[Babi_Siha]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

...and I'm not being "selfish." I'm simply trying to state the viewpoint of what was written for Miranda and what she did. She thought finding Orianna took precedence, and Shepard was plenty equipped to get things done with what he had.

Right, putting the fate of one person, related or not, above everyone else is not being selfish at all. /sarcasm

Shepard was well equipped, but it's war, he could always use someone else.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Miranda is far too high up for her (or her fans) to plead ignorance of Cerberus. Part of the problem is that Cerberus shifted from space IRA to space N*zis. You could support the ideal as stated in the manifesto while deploring their methods. ME3 Cerberus is fit only to be eradicated.

Indeed. I find the KKK comparison totally inappropriate ME2 Cerberus. There are quite a few smart people in Cerberus who aren't racists or suchlike and just want to give humanity a leg up. Take Brynn and her people.

ME2 Cerberus is completely implausible if you tell yourself that there’s a bunch of these really nice and tolerant people working there. It’s disingenuous. And boring. I get that you want Miranda (et al.) to just be ‘misunderstood’, but it makes for a flatter character.

Why are these people in Cerberus? They know for a fact—let me repeat that, for a fact, it’s been in the news, the organization is officially recognized as one by governments—that Cerberus are terrorists. They know this. Actual bombings, assassinations and stuff. Why are nice people involved?

What do we really know about Brynn and her people? Maybe they’re OK with a little crossburning and driving undesirable folks out of town with a couple warning shots, but don’t really want to be there when the rope comes out? Relatively speaking that’s good, of course.

[krukow]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

...and I'm not being "selfish." I'm simply trying to state the viewpoint of what was written for Miranda and what she did. She thought finding Orianna took precedence, and Shepard was plenty equipped to get things done with what he had.

Right, putting the fate of one person, related or not, above everyone else is not being selfish at all. /sarcasm

Shepard was well equipped, but it's war, he could always use someone else.

He could, but Miranda joining him isn't an absolute necessity. It's not a make-or-break move for the war effort. Miranda knows Shepard will be fine without her, and Shepard knows how important Orianna is to her.

Exactly.  He's already got Ashley, that's all the help he needs

[krukow]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

krukow wrote...Exactly.  He's already got Ashley, that's all the help he needs

We all know why Miranda didn't join the crew on the Normandy.

As she says here, Miranda has no time for incompetence, and we all know Ashley exudes imcompetence.

Given that she works extensively with Jacob, I think she's bluffing about the no time thing...

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

krukow wrote...Exactly.  He's already got Ashley, that's all the help he needs

We all know why Miranda didn't join the crew on the Normandy.

As she says here, Miranda has no time for incompetence, and we all know Ashley exudes imcompetence.

Given that she works extensively with Jacob, I think she's bluffing about the no time thing...

Actually, Jacob might be one of world's worst characters, but he was a pretty competent soldier, survived Eden Prime, accomplished what he did in ME: Galaxy and he's one of the only squadmates suitable to lead the fire team.

[Babi_Siha]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

I sent him as the bubble man during the Suicide Mission, just for shiggles.

Didn't work out very well.

Which is why I said suitable leader. The only ones suited for the bubble are Jack and Samara.

[jtav]

And it doesn't work out so well for Miranda either. I put her there when I need a non-stupid death.