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[Taboo]

Babi_Siha wrote...
Honestly, I believe that the Catalyst really didn't want destroy because this way the Reapers are gone for good. When it says to Shepard that he was part synthetic and would die, that was a lie, perhaps was his final appeal so that Shepard wouldn't consider that an option.

I don't think he believes anything he says, the whole is one big manipulation attempt. He says he's the solution to chaos and that synthetics will always rebel against organics. How is it that harvesting organics help then? Everytime a cycle creates a synthetic would it not be best for the Reapers to interfere putting an end only to the AIs? And why did Sovereign said the Reapers let organics advance, what does this have to do with order/chaos? They let organics advance so that they can create synthetics to rebel against their creators?

Yes, that's a very interesting thing to note. He does not do this with any of the other endings, at least in the same cpacity. He states you'll lose everything you have as a side effect of Control. He then expresses distaste at being replaced.

If you want to intepret it this way I think it's perfectly viable. He presents other fallacies, why stop there, is it not plausible to think that a Rouge AI may attempt an Appeal to Emotion?

He's machine. He doesn't understand why someone would chosse Destroy. Why put yourself at risk? He believes he's saving them. It's an act of deifance in my opinion. A way to say "I really don't care what you say, we're making our own future".

He also states that Shepard's children will create new Synthetics and the chaos will begin again. The Stargazer scene has been confirmed to take place tne thousand years in the future.

I don't think Miranda and Shepard will be alive that long. From a narrative standpoint, it makes that portion of his logic look stupid.

Babi_Siha wrote...
Ps: trying to argument in English is so much harder. I hope my text was clear. 

Yes ma'am. You were perfectly clear. Don't beat yourself up. 

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 18 août 2012 - 12:46 .

[Cmdr. Ken Shepard]

Taboo-XX wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...
The Reapers are being painted as being anit-heros, though; at least to me. In Dark Energy, they're revelaed to be saving the galaxy from the dark energy, and in this convoluted mess we have now called a video game ending, they're trying to save us from being destroyed by our own creations. I don't like it one bit.

Still, it's better than having the Reapers be the bad guys for 2 and 3/4 of the series, only to be turned into a child's play things with five minutes left.

They aren't so much playthings to me as they are a mistake. The Catalyst reminds me a lot of the brooms in Fantasia. He was created for one purpose, and he will do anything to fufill it. In the film, they continue to fill the well with water, even at the expense of life. They do not undersand this concept and will push anything aside to fufill that goal.

The Catalyst does not have a solution to the problem, he has a work around. Much like the brooms he won't quit. He is more than willing to kill his creators to solve the issue. That's cold machine logic. He cares nothing for feelings.

At the end of the day, the entirety of this problem is that people don't take responsibility for their creations. Victor Frankenstein had this problem.

Building on what you said, I see the Reapers in the same manner as the genophage. An answer to a problem but when the veriables change the answer remains the same. They seem to extreme for their own solution. What I never understood was how the Reapers still defended their snythetics will destroy organics when peace is able to be made with the Geth and Quarians.

At least the Dark Energy ending had them as a necessary evil. When a creation based on logic loses anargument with verifiable evidence (peace between synthetics and organics) then I just sorta lose my mind.

Even if the Quarian v. Geth argument doesn't have enough appeal to have a Reaper go, "ok you win, there's peace" then at least the Legion helping the Normandy, Geth are otherwise pawn's in a bigger scheme thing seems like a rip off. The Reapers argument is based on an equation where the values are stacked in their favor.

What I mean is: Sure Quarian's and Geth started their own war, but the Geth didn't become a galactic problem until Saren (Reaper controlling Geth), The Geth in ME2 are pawns yet again, and in ME3 I am finally able to truly free them from outside control of Reapers.

The argument fails when the Reapers themselves are loading the deck from which they are using as evidence to support their claims.

Even Legion makes it clear the Geth meant no harm to organics, and only have ever defended themselves when they were free from outside control.

Sorry for my paragraph and possible incoherency. Had to get that frustration out of my head. 

[Taboo]

Organics have also shown to be far more competent than he thought they were. What's to say that this cycle won't be different. They were more than capable of Destroying the Reapers. As awful as it sounds they are more than capable of building another Crucible if Synthetics reach singularity or become aggressive.

I'd like to see that not taking place in my canon. Ten thousand years is a long time, well within the foreseeable future for my Shepard.

Living for today is just as important.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 18 août 2012 - 12:57 .

[Cmdr. Ken Shepard]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

I'll just agree to disagree with you on that. I think the Catalyst was the mistake. I wish they would have just stuck with Harbinger as the leader of the Reapers after taking the position from Sovereign, not an AI taking the form of a child.

I agree 100%. I never got the battle with Harbinger I wanted. “You will regret your resistance, Shepard.”

Yeah, Harby bring it on!

[krukow]

How was Shepard supposed to fight Harbinger, and have it not be rediculous? Would he posses the body of some humanoid enemy ala Soverign?

[Babi_Siha]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes, that's a very interesting thing to note. He does not do this with any of the other endings, at least in the same cpacity. He states you'll lose everything you have as a side effect of Control. He then expresses distaste at being replaced.

If you want to intepret it this way I think it's perfectly viable. He presents other fallacies, why stop there, is it not plausible to think that a Rouge AI may attempt an Appeal to Emotion?

Yeah, it wants to live, probably knows about human emotions, so I don't think it's a a stretch to think it was trying to manipulate Shepard the whole time. However, I suppose it could be possible that the Catalyst simply believed that Shepard woud die, but for headcanon reason I'll play the manipulation card.

He's machine. He doesn't understand why someone would chosse Destroy. Why put yourself at risk? He believes he's saving them. It's an act of deifance in my opinion. A way to say "I really don't care what you say, we're making our own future".

Maybe he does believe that, but there are other ways he could save organics if that were truly the case, like just destroying the geth instead of harvesting organics. Maybe harvesting organics and turning them into mindless slaves is the Catalyst way of keeping organics from creating more synthetics, but in the end, if every specie is harvested there won't be much to go on.

Also, if the Catalyst truly believes organics will always create synthetics, why not harvest every specie at once? Why wait for some to evolve? For example, why spare the yahg if their destiny is to create chaos? It would save the Reapers a lot of trouble.

He also states that Shepard's children will create new Synthetics and the chaos will begin again. The Stargazer scene has been confirmed to take place tne thousand years in the future.

I don't think Miranda and Shepard will be alive that long. From a narrative standpoint, it makes that portion of his logic look stupid.

We don't really know anything about that future to speculate, but the Catalyst's logic never been anything but stupid.

Yes ma'am. You were perfectly clear. Don't beat yourself up.

Thank you, I'm glad it was clear enough. :happy:

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

How was Shepard supposed to fight Harbinger, and have it not be rediculous? Would he posses the body of some humanoid enemy ala Soverign?

One might weaken him and have him crash and begin to repair. Before that happens Shepard and crew could break in and head to the core while your assets held off Reapers.

Suicide Mission 2.0.

BUT NOOOOOOOOO. I HAD TO SIT THROUGH TEN MINUTES OF FALLACIES INSTEAD.

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...

krukow wrote...

How was Shepard supposed to fight Harbinger, and have it not be rediculous? Would he posses the body of some humanoid enemy ala Soverign?

One might weaken him and have him crash and begin to repair. Before that happens Shepard and crew could break in and head to the core while your assets held off Reapers.

Suicide Mission 2.0.

BUT NOOOOOOOOO. I HAD TO SIT THROUGH TEN MINUTES OF FALLACIES INSTEAD.

Plus, when your shepard shot the tube, his last thought was of Liara.

Seriously, that's your favorite part of the EC isn't it?  Miranda getting to be in it?

[Babi_Siha]

Taboo-XX wrote...

krukow wrote...

How was Shepard supposed to fight Harbinger, and have it not be rediculous? Would he posses the body of some humanoid enemy ala Soverign?

One might weaken him and have him crash and begin to repair. Before that happens Shepard and crew could break in and head to the core while your assets held off Reapers.

Suicide Mission 2.0.

BUT NOOOOOOOOO. I HAD TO SIT THROUGH TEN MINUTES OF FALLACIES INSTEAD.

Shepard did destroy a Reaper in Rannoch... well, the flotila did. Anyway, that proved it was possible to do exactly that, weaken Harbinger that way and then Shepard's team could finish the job from the ground. Suicide mission 2.0 and satisfaction for most players.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 18 août 2012 - 01:10 .

[flemm]

Babi_Siha wrote...
I think Drew Karpyshyn is the best writer in the series, he practically created the whole concept that ME is about, losing Drew really affected the direction the third game took and not in a good way.

I think you're probably right about that. For some reason, it doesn't get talked about a lot.

Whether or not he is the *best* writer, I don't know, but he seems to have been a very positive influence.

He may have worked as a bit of a balancing agent, as far as being the original lead writer, and so basically co-creator of the IP, but having a different "vision" of it than Hudson.

Modifié par flemm, 18 août 2012 - 01:13 .

[krukow]

Eh, it took a whole fleet to kill one reaper destroyer. You can kill a reaper, sure, but it takes too much firepower and the ratio isn't high enough for us. I don't mind that a DE solution was needed, I just wish it had been more "victorious" from the start (that's right, I don't care about star jar, I just wanted to win).

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

Plus, when your shepard shot the tube, his last thought was of Liara.

Seriously, that's your favorite part of the EC isn't it?  Miranda getting to be in it?

That part really hurt.

The most important person in your Shepard's life.........is not your LI.

Well **** Bioware.

I was pleased that she made it out yes, and got a flashback ,as well as a beautiful slide, but she's only apart of story.

Miranda being there with Shepard is important, but getting the sense that I did the right thing was also very important to me. I wouldn't pick Destroy for my Shepard if the end result didn't fit. Having him survive and being with Miranda is a nice bonus, and it certainly makes the ending more emotional.

I got all that in the EC, so I was pleased.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

Eh, it took a whole fleet to kill one reaper destroyer. You can kill a reaper, sure, but it takes too much firepower and the ratio isn't high enough for us. I don't mind that a DE solution was needed, I just wish it had been more "victorious" from the start (that's right, I don't care about star jar, I just wanted to win).

Yeah, I guess you're right. Still, figuring out a way to beat Harbnger would sure be more interesting than the Catalyst.

On a different note, just tweeted Gamble and Weekes about a DLC with ME2 characters and their version on Priority: Earth (I've already spammed them enough about Miranda on the Omega DLC). Hoping for a reply, though not realy expecting one.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 18 août 2012 - 01:27 .

[jtav]

The slides and flashback fixed so much. Shepard's mental priorities in order. Miranda being awesome. I am genuinely conflicted between Synthesis and Control.

[Babi_Siha]

jtav wrote...

The slides and flashback fixed so much. Shepard's mental priorities in order. Miranda being awesome. I am genuinely conflicted between Synthesis and Control.

Both of those scenarios can have a Reaper rebelling anytime. And even though one Reaper will be nothing against all others, it will still be able to cause major destruction.

[flemm]

Well, this Pheonix Project thing in MP is tantalizing. Feels like the kind of ex-Cerberus thing Miranda should be involved with.

Lazarus Project = Phoenix Project = "rebirth" theme

So... *fingers crossed*

Modifié par flemm, 18 août 2012 - 01:31 .

[Babi_Siha]

flemm wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...
I think Drew Karpyshyn is the best writer in the series, he practically created the whole concept that ME is about, losing Drew really affected the direction the third game took and not in a good way.

I think you're probably right about that. For some reason, it doesn't get talked about a lot.

Whether or not he is the *best* writer, I don't know, but he seems to have been a very positive influence.

He may have worked as a bit of a balancing agent, as far as being the original lead writer, and so basically co-creator of the IP, but having a different "vision" of it than Hudson.

Given the outcome of ME3 I'd say Hudson either had too much [misplaced] faith on Walters or you're right and he had an entirely different vision than Drew.

[jtav]

Miranda introducing Lash like Liara did Stasis? Yes, please!

[Babi_Siha]

flemm wrote...

Well, this Pheonix Project thing in MP is tantalizing. Feels like the kind of ex-Cerberus thing Miranda should be involved with.

Lazarus Project = Phoenix Project = "rebirth" theme

So... *fingers crossed*

Yeah, on the Omega DLC I can see a Phoenix defector replacing Miranda if she had died. And if she didn't, I can imagine her teaming up with them to go after Cerberus.

[Cmdr. Ken Shepard]

jtav wrote...

Miranda introducing Lash like Liara did Stasis? Yes, please!

Agreed!!

[Taboo]

Miranda would have to compete with Aria though. That's just the thing.

You have two strong women there. I suppose it might work if it was done right.

But that would make sense, so Bioware probably hasn't considered it.