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[Taboo]

It isn't speculation it's a **** up.

It's like a film that has a huge continuity error in it that makes you go WTF IS THIS? And it isn't one that makes the film better, like some in The Shining do.

Authorial intent can be great, but not when it isn't feasible. It makes less sense than Synthesis.

I can accept the infertility but not this loopy **** going on around it.

But the conversation between Miranda and her sister only appears if you let her talk to her so at least THAT'S accurate.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
And really what I was asking is whether it's offensive to erase a medical condition if not having it could potentially move the story forward. Because erasing Joker's Vrolik's would be offensive. Though now I'm wondering if I can make the infertility do what I need it to.

Shep and Miranda are sleeping together during the six months. We're already AU.

Since I found giving her the infertility offensive (on a meta level, not in-world) in the first place, why would I find it offensive to remove it?

Also, in a universe where Shepard didn't read the dossiers, you can always pretend it doesn't exist. 

I'm trying to do the same with the Catalysts fire analogy. 

I looked at enough research photos for you people (You haven't LIVED until you've seen a blocked Uterus) and I can say that this is well within the ability to fix.

She can do it with Shepard's help in Destroy.

Or by herself in Control.

Haven't given much thought to it in Synthesis though. I don't think it would fix tumors.

Not by itself, no. But nothing prevents things to be fixed afterwards. Actually, I don't really want it fixed, but rather circumvented with reproductive technology. On the other hand, it's such an easy problem to fix that I can't see how it couldn't be done. Unless Miranda doesn't want to. 

[Hrothdane]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
And really what I was asking is whether it's offensive to erase a medical condition if not having it could potentially move the story forward. Because erasing Joker's Vrolik's would be offensive. Though now I'm wondering if I can make the infertility do what I need it to.

Shep and Miranda are sleeping together during the six months. We're already AU.

Since I found giving her the infertility offensive (on a meta level, not in-world) in the first place, why would I find it offensive to remove it?

Also, in a universe where Shepard didn't read the dossiers, you can always pretend it doesn't exist. 

I'm trying to do the same with the Catalysts fire analogy. 

I looked at enough research photos for you people (You haven't LIVED until you've seen a blocked Uterus) and I can say that this is well within the ability to fix.

She can do it with Shepard's help in Destroy.

Or by herself in Control.

Haven't given much thought to it in Synthesis though. I don't think it would fix tumors.

Not by itself, no. But nothing prevents things to be fixed afterwards. Actually, I don't really want it fixed, but rather circumvented with reproductive technology. On the other hand, it's such an easy problem to fix that I can't see how it couldn't be done. Unless Miranda doesn't want to. 

Makes sense they could fix something like that. Perhaps she wanted to wait until her life calms down and she could settle down with someone?

If she is just doing casual sex before she meets Shepard as implied by the dossier, then it would even be practical for her to wait.

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't have my Shepard read the dossiers anyway. His friends past is their past. I might as well not even consider it canon.

Heh, so if your Shepard closes his eyes real tight, the Reapers don’t really exist either?

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

However, for the purposes of fanfic or something, one could certainly consider some of the info to be inaccurate. The SB must gather info from all over the place. Certainly not all of it is accurate, that would be impossible.

No, see, the SB collects information that it is probably at least 99.9% certain (obviously less certain info, too, but that’s handled differently. It just won’t be a part of someone’s personality profile without a serious warning).

So while it’s possible to forge, I think it would have required a lot of premeditation (Henry/Cerberus?). It’s not necessarily meant to fool the SB to begin with, but a third party altogether.

[Ieldra]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
And really what I was asking is whether it's offensive to erase a medical condition if not having it could potentially move the story forward. Because erasing Joker's Vrolik's would be offensive. Though now I'm wondering if I can make the infertility do what I need it to.

Shep and Miranda are sleeping together during the six months. We're already AU.

Since I found giving her the infertility offensive (on a meta level, not in-world) in the first place, why would I find it offensive to remove it?

Also, in a universe where Shepard didn't read the dossiers, you can always pretend it doesn't exist. 

It's like reverse speculation!

LOL, "reverse speculation". I like the term!

Anyway, as I see it, every playthrough of Shepard's story creates a self-contained universe, and the only canonical things are those you can't plausibly avoid to see in a reasonably complete playthrough. So some of Miranda's lines simply don't exist for me, or rather for certain of my Shepards, because they are choice-dependent (like the infamous "betrayal" line) or are otherwise easy to avoid (like the romance conflict lines). For meaningful discussion of Miranda, the (information about the) infertility is part of her, but for any individual playthrough it need not be, even less for fanfic.  

[lillitheris]

jtav wrote...

Shep and Miranda are sleeping together during the six months. We're already AU.

Technically, sure. I—and probably many readers—don’t consider those kinds of things ‘real’ AU, just “left of canon”. Stuff like both Kaidan and Ash surviving would be, or Nihlus being alive, or Saren managing to fight off indoctrination, or whatever.

Just saying that moving from ‘AU lite’ right into what you’re proposing would still be a pretty huge jump.

Anyway, not to derail… If you like, can continue over in the Fanfic Writers’ Support Group, or PMs.

[lillitheris]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

... I actually have OCD about many things 

Yes, OCD seems to be common among users in here. Not that that's a bad thing.

I'll throw my name in that hat. I can be pretty bad about it as well.

I’ll note that I don’t know any of you, but I’m just going to say that since we have someone with actual, moderate-severe OCD in the thread, I hope nobody’s using the term casually.

[hot_heart]

I don't know all the details, and maybe this is stretching credibility with regards to medicine in ME, but for the purposes of jtav's idea, could it be feasible to imagine the report about the infertility was ages ago and she'd undergone an operation which wasn't entirely successful and caused complications when she did become pregnant?

[lillitheris]

^ Medically, sure, I don’t see a problem. The only issue would be that I don’t think the SB would have outdated information on people it’s specifically being gathered on.

Edit: actually, there’s a second problem—a potential one, anyway. That would imply that she does want a child, at least for several years already. Personally, I’m not sure that fits, but…

Edit2: also, given the fairly vastly extended lifespan, people in the ME universe probably aren’t having kids in their twenties much (my personal interpretation is that it’s more women in their 40’s at the earliest). That’d be another anomaly.

Modifié par lillitheris, 20 août 2012 - 08:18 .

[hot_heart]

Ah, true. Not to say the information is complete, but it would seem odd not to include that.

Though...maybe Miranda went to some SUPER SECRET doctors, possibly unregistered, and perhaps that's why something went wrong. Now that's probably stretching plausibility.

lillitheris wrote...
Edit: actually, there’s a second problem—a potential one, anyway. That would imply that she does want a child, at least for several years already. Personally, I’m not sure that fits, but…

Edit2: also, given the fairly vastly extended lifespan, people in the ME universe probably aren’t having kids in their
twenties much (my personal interpretation is that it’s more women in their 40’s at the earliest). That’d be another anomaly.

Since the report is from a doctor on Illium, maybe it was being reminded of Oriana that spurred the idea?

As for the 'when' of having kids, I'd assume the actual maturing is regular, and you mean societally-speaking? Either way, I don't see Miranda concerned with that sort of thing.

Obviously, just to clarify, I'm not saying I really support any of these theories. Just ruminating on possible ways for jtav's idea to carry some 'authenticity' if she so wanted.

Modifié par hot_heart, 20 août 2012 - 08:32 .

[lillitheris]

hot_heart wrote...

As for the 'when' of having kids, I'd assume the actual maturing is regular, and you mean societally-speaking? Either way, I don't see Miranda concerned with that sort of thing.

Yes, it seems that the middle part of life has been extended. Adulthood is 25-100, maybe even 110-120 rather than the 25-60 or so of today. (Apparently 150 isn’t an unheard-of age, and I suspect lots of the issues of old age have been ameliorated to a degree.)

While I agree that Miranda wouldn’t care about such things if she wanted a child, it‘s the wanting itself that’s the anomaly. To me, it implies a fairly extreme desire for a child. While this, in itself, is neither a good or bad thing…for me, it doesn’t fit her. In that way, a pregnancy that did not involve a cure would seem less extreme.

[hot_heart]

No, I agree; which is part of why the dossier stuff doesn't seem to fit anyway. You could play it with the angle that she wasn't always so hardened and focused on her duty to Cerberus perhaps? If the stuff with Oriana had sparked that desire in a younger Miranda, I could sort of see that working. Anyway, it's just throwing around ideas. It's up to jtav whether she thinks any of that fits or doesn't even matter.

As for my own purposes, how does everyone view the course of events for Sanctuary? From what I can gather, TIM was aware that the Reapers were either interested in the facility, or already attacking it, hence why he sent Kai Leng to get the data.

And if Miranda's line about "Things got really complicated when Reapers showed up. And Kai Leng", is meant as chronological as it sounds, then she could've been there sometime, finding her way around. At some point, Kai Leng must have beaten her to the tower and I guess she encountered him on his way back. I can't recall if she was in the tower when she was attacked though, and whether exactly the 'heavy resistance' was Reapers or Cerberus.

I guess it's something like:
1. Miranda arrives - either she has found a secret way through which she arrives into the facility, or discovers a secret entrance somewhere beyond the legitimate-looking front like Shepard does.
2. Searching around, she uncovers what has been going on. During this time, Reapers arrive.
3. Kai Leng arrives, making it to the tower (while the Reapers are focused on Miranda?) and retrieves the data. He abandons Henry and Oriana who have holed up in there.
4. Miranda encounters Kai Leng. He leaves without 'finishing the job' and also avoids Shepard on his way out.
5. Miranda makes it into the tower with Shepard not far behind.

The bits I am a little unclear on is whether she would've faced Cerberus troops beforehand, or if perhaps they arrived with Kai Leng. Also, I assume she knew Oriana must be there because her father was. Or maybe she gets some information our of Kai Leng?

Help plx.

[Lawrence0294]

hot_heart wrote...

No, I agree; which is part of why the dossier stuff doesn't seem to fit anyway. You could play it with the angle that she wasn't always so hardened and focused on her duty to Cerberus perhaps? If the stuff with Oriana had sparked that desire in a younger Miranda, I could sort of see that working. Anyway, it's just throwing around ideas. It's up to jtav whether she thinks any of that fits or doesn't even matter.

As for my own purposes, how does everyone view the course of events for Sanctuary? From what I can gather, TIM was aware that the Reapers were either interested in the facility, or already attacking it, hence why he sent Kai Leng to get the data.

And if Miranda's line about "Things got really complicated when Reapers showed up. And Kai Leng", is meant as chronological as it sounds, then she could've been there sometime, finding her way around. At some point, Kai Leng must have beaten her to the tower and I guess she encountered him on his way back. I can't recall if she was in the tower when she was attacked though, and whether exactly the 'heavy resistance' was Reapers or Cerberus.

I guess it's something like:
1. Miranda arrives - either she has found a secret way through which she arrives into the facility, or discovers a secret entrance somewhere beyond the legitimate-looking front like Shepard does.
2. Searching around, she uncovers what has been going on. During this time, Reapers arrive.
3. Kai Leng arrives, making it to the tower (while the Reapers are focused on Miranda?) and retrieves the data. He abandons Henry and Oriana who have holed up in there.
4. Miranda encounters Kai Leng. He leaves without 'finishing the job' and also avoids Shepard on his way out.
5. Miranda makes it into the tower with Shepard not far behind.

The bits I am a little unclear on is whether she would've faced Cerberus troops beforehand, or if perhaps they arrived with Kai Leng. Also, I assume she knew Oriana must be there because her father was. Or maybe she gets some information our of Kai Leng?

Help plx.

I think she faced cerberus troops beforehand as this is a cerberus facility. Kai leng probably went there alone for the data.

Since she discovered her father was there, she must have deduced it was her best chance to find info on Oriana.

But things are very unclear and messy for the chronology of the events

See, all the stuff that you mentionned sounds really awesome for Miranda, but they needed bo be SHOWN, not deduced as such.

[hot_heart]

kratos0294 wrote...
I think she faced cerberus troops beforehand as this is a cerberus facility. Kai leng probably went there alone for the data.

Since she discovered her father was there, she must have deduced it was her best chance to find info on Oriana.

But things are very unclear and messy for the chronology of the events

See, all the stuff that you mentionned sounds really awesome for Miranda, but they needed bo be SHOWN, not deduced as such.

Oh, of course. At least I get to write it.

My query about the Cerberus troops was because you don't really see them inside the facility, only in the front where you see 'casualties on both sides'. I guess I need some royal rumble involving Miranda, Cerberus troops and Reapers.

Regardless, I'm going to replay the mission and get a better understanding. Just unfortunate that my nearest savegame is before Thessia...

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

... I actually have OCD about many things 

Yes, OCD seems to be common among users in here. Not that that's a bad thing.

I'll throw my name in that hat. I can be pretty bad about it as well.

I’ll note that I don’t know any of you, but I’m just going to say that since we have someone with actual, moderate-severe OCD in the thread, I hope nobody’s using the term casually.

Yes, I've been helping said user myself.

I suffer from it daily so I take matters involving it seriously.

[cbutz]

You know, I kind of wonder what Henry meant by "Finishing the job" At first I thought he was referencing Miranda. He may be referencing Shepard since this occurs after Thessia. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't he say " Kai Leng may not have finished the job." OR am I remembering it incorrectly

[Taboo]

He's referring to the project they're working on. They have been doing ALL of this in an attempt to Control the Reapers. They succeeded, hence the Reaper attack.

[hot_heart]

Hmm, it can look a bit confusing but I think he's referring to Miranda. The scene goes something like this.


"Miranda, can you hear me?"
*Miranda struggles to her feet. Henry watches her, his gun still levelled at Shepard*
"That's close enough. Both of you. Kai Leng didn't finish the job, but I will."

I guess it could be in reference to both of them, technically. Interesting point, cbutz!

Modifié par hot_heart, 20 août 2012 - 01:35 .

[Taboo]

Oh I thought he was referring to the cutscene with him talking to TIM.

Yes he's talking about Miranda.

It pains me to no end that THIS Kai Leng can actually kill her.

It also pains me that some of the best content is seen only if he does fatally wound her.

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

... I actually have OCD about many things 

Yes, OCD seems to be common among users in here. Not that that's a bad thing.

I'll throw my name in that hat. I can be pretty bad about it as well.

I’ll note that I don’t know any of you, but I’m just going to say that since we have someone with actual, moderate-severe OCD in the thread, I hope nobody’s using the term casually.

Yes, I've been helping said user myself.

I suffer from it daily so I take matters involving it seriously.

More than just moderate to severe. That user has a full blown disconnection from reality.

[Taboo]

Miranda won't be having a child for several years anyway. There are far more important things that need to be done. Things need to be rebuilt. Maybe five or six years down the line if Shepard is with her she might consider it, as that's almost half of the allotted time Bioware gave for things to be rebuilt to pre-war specifications.

Miranda would not bring a child into the world with the Galaxy in such a state.

[Ieldra]

hot_heart wrote...
As for my own purposes, how does everyone view the course of events for Sanctuary? From what I can gather, TIM was aware that the Reapers were either interested in the facility, or already attacking it, hence why he sent Kai Leng to get the data.

And if Miranda's line about "Things got really complicated when Reapers showed up. And Kai Leng", is meant as chronological as it sounds, then she could've been there sometime, finding her way around. At some point, Kai Leng must have beaten her to the tower and I guess she encountered him on his way back. I can't recall if she was in the tower when she was attacked though, and whether exactly the 'heavy resistance' was Reapers or Cerberus.

I guess it's something like:
1. Miranda arrives - either she has found a secret way through which she arrives into the facility, or discovers a secret entrance somewhere beyond the legitimate-looking front like Shepard does.
2. Searching around, she uncovers what has been going on. During this time, Reapers arrive.
3. Kai Leng arrives, making it to the tower (while the Reapers are focused on Miranda?) and retrieves the data. He abandons Henry and Oriana who have holed up in there.
4. Miranda encounters Kai Leng. He leaves without 'finishing the job' and also avoids Shepard on his way out.
5. Miranda makes it into the tower with Shepard not far behind.

The bits I am a little unclear on is whether she would've faced Cerberus troops beforehand, or if perhaps they arrived with Kai Leng. Also, I assume she knew Oriana must be there because her father was. Or maybe she gets some information our of Kai Leng?

Here's how I see it:
(1) Miranda arrives and begins to search.
(2) After Thessia, TIM knows about the Catalyst and the Crucible. The continuation of Henry's research is suddenly not all that important any more. He orders Kai Leng to get the data.
(3) Reapers arrive. Miranda mostly avoids them while continuing her search.
(4) Kai Leng arrives. Confronted with the Reaper situation, he asks TIM for orders who says get the research and get the hell out of here.

Then it gets unclear. I'm trying to find a way to leave Miranda wounded in the presence of Henry. Could be Miranda and Kai Leng fight in the tower, Miranda is wounded but Kai Leng's in a hurry so he doesn't finish the job. After he's gone, Henry enters, and with a wounded Miranda and Oriana as Henry's hostage it's a standoff until Shepard shows up.