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[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

After all, she is pragmatic and authoritarian.

No she isn't. If anything she resents authoritarian control. I would think this would be obvious by her anti-council stance and her hatred of her father.

Those have nothing to do with authoritarianism.

Yes they do.

Putting one person in control of the entirety of something is exactly what TIM was planning all along.

Neither does that.

Are you serious? Are you telling me that the ultimate authoritarian move WOULDN'T be putting one person in charge of the entire galaxy?

That's what Control does, the only difference is whether or not your AI is malevolent or benevolent.

Look me in in the face and tell me that him having absolute power over the Reapers would have been a paradise for everyone involved. That's been his goal since ME2. He doesn't care about pragmatism, he cares about his own selfish wants.

[Stalker]

 

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

Of course one of these outfits would be possible, but isn't this already perfect? Looks better than making her fit into a generic female outfit/and body of the normal kind.

Regarding the ship: I thought you would name me a specific ship since I have no idea about the classes: USS Voyager, Enterprise-E/D, USS Defiant, USS Mirage, some Klingon ship... choose.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 20 août 2012 - 07:18 .

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
She supports a system where supreme powers lies with a single person who has proven himself capable of ruling without any actual means of replacing him except through force of arms and also defends a very clear chain of command aboard the Normandy as well as control chips as means of controlling dangerous people.
She is a very authoritarian, domineering person. Wheter or not this has changed in ME3 is up for debate.

Actually, I think you're oversimplifying matters immensely.

For example, believing that a chain of command is necessary in the military, or on a ship like the Normandy, has really nothing to do with being authoritarian. It's a practical necessity. The military is not democratic, but that doesn't mean they don't believe in democracy, for example.

On the other hand, I think it could be accurate to say that she has some domineering tendencies, some of which are bad, and some of which are good. It is a problematic area of Miranda's character (which is good, obviously, characters *should* grapple with that type of thing).

But Miranda's motivations have never been selfish. That is the key difference, with regard to TIM. His motivations may not always have been selfish, but they became so over time.

Modifié par flemm, 20 août 2012 - 07:19 .

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

She supports a system where supreme powers lies with a single person who has proven himself capable of ruling without any actual means of replacing him except through force of arms and also defends a very clear chain of command aboard the Normandy as well as control chips as means of controlling dangerous people.
She is a very authoritarian, domineering person. Wheter or not this has changed in ME3 is up for debate.

And? Shepard does too but it doesn't make him this authoritarian hard ass that you seem to relish so much.

You are thinking WAAAAAAY too simply.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 20 août 2012 - 07:19 .

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

After all, she is pragmatic and authoritarian.

No she isn't. If anything she resents authoritarian control. I would think this would be obvious by her anti-council stance and her hatred of her father.

Those have nothing to do with authoritarianism.

Yes they do.

Putting one person in control of the entirety of something is exactly what TIM was planning all along.

Neither does that.

Are you serious? Are you telling me that the ultimate authoritarian move WOULDN'T be putting one person in charge of the entire galaxy?

That's what Control does, the only difference is whether or not your AI is malevolent or benevolent.

Look me in in the face and tell me that him having absolute power over the Reapers would have been a paradise for everyone involved. That's been his goal since ME2. He doesn't care about pragmatism, he cares about his own selfish wants.

The ultimate form of authoritarianism is Totalitarianism. Making one supreme Reaper overlord is... ta da, that.

Miranda does have a bit of conundrum personality though. She resents the control asserted by her father, but is yet willing to control others lives.

She realizes this in the 3 and reconciles it with Shepard, telling him that she apologizes for ever thinking about controlling him despite her hatred of her fathers attempts to control her.

[flemm]

fiendishchicken wrote...

She realizes this in the 3 and reconciles it with Shepard, telling him that she apologizes for ever thinking about controlling him despite her hatred of her fathers attempts to control her.

Yes, which is why I think this conversation is the best, in that it reflects Miranda grappling with that issue.

Being a bit domineering can make Miranda a good operative and XO, and it can make Shepard a good leader, etc. But... it's not always good.

Modifié par flemm, 20 août 2012 - 07:21 .

[MisterJB]

Also, her resignation in ME2 has nothing to do with rebelling against authority. Rather, it is an expression of her distate for TIM's lack of regard towards those he commands.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Mr Massakka wrote...

 

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

Of course one of these outfits would be possible, but isn't this already perfect? Looks better than making her fit into a generic female outfit/and body of the normal kind.

Regarding the ship: I thought you would name me a specific ship since I have no idea about the classes: USS Voyager, Enterprise-E/D, USS Defiant, USS Mirage, some Klingon ship... choose.

That is perfect already. And it's in the right color.

Try either the Enterprise E



Or Voyager:



Which ship would fit Miri to Command the most?

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

Also, her resignation in ME2 has nothing to do with rebelling against authority. Rather, it is an expression of her distate for TIM's lack of regard towards those he commands.

Well, again, i think you're oversimplifying. Miranda has no problem with authority, depending on the circumstances. She can be a good soldier and XO.

But she does have a problem with abuse of authority, in essence. That is why she would never conform to her father's wishes and rebelled against him. And basically, that is why she rebels in this case.

Modifié par flemm, 20 août 2012 - 07:26 .

[fiendishchicken]

MisterJB wrote...

Also, her resignation in ME2 has nothing to do with rebelling against authority. Rather, it is an expression of her distate for TIM's lack of regard towards those he commands.

And clearly not a sign that she believes TIM's faith in the CB is terribly misguided and that he has lost his way to get

more power, whether through personal megalomania or indoctrination.

And it most definitely couldn't be her devotion and loyalty to Shepard with whom she is falling in love with and has
shown her that there is more to the galaxy than Cerberus. <_<

[fiendishchicken]

Enough with the Star Trek crap alright! It has nothing to do with Miranda or Mass Effect.

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...
For example, believing that a chain of command is necessary in the military, or on a ship like the Normandy, has really nothing to do with being authoritarian. It's a practical necessity. The military is not democratic, but that doesn't mean they don't believe in democracy, for example.

True. Cerberus, however, is authoritarian by nature and Miranda defended this system.

On the other hand, I think it could be accurate to say that she has some domineering tendencies, some of which are bad, and some of which are good. It is a problematic area of Miranda's character (which is good, obviously, characters *should* grapple with that type of thing).

But Miranda's motivations have never been selfish. That is the key difference, with regard to TIM. His motivations may not always have been selfish, but they became so over time.

I disagree that TIM is selfish. But I do not see the purpose of bringing this up.
Her selflessness does not preclude Miranda being authoritarian or meritocratic.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Enough with the Star Trek crap alright! It has nothing to do with Miranda or Mass Effect.

Calm the **** down. We are merely discussing something else for Miri. We do not have to be caught up with what YOU are talking about.<_<

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 20 août 2012 - 07:30 .

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
After all, she is pragmatic and authoritarian.

No she isn't. If anything she resents authoritarian control. I would think this would be obvious by her anti-council stance and her hatred of her father. She is a pragmatist, not a fascist.

She resents control. She talks about this more than once.

If I was to make a guess about Miranda's political leaning, I'd say she was meritocratic. She wouldn't stand for anyone's incompetence regardless of the justification. If that means making an authoritarian decision here or there instead of listening to the voice of the public, she'd do it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 août 2012 - 07:30 .

[Stalker]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

 

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

Of course one of these outfits would be possible, but isn't this already perfect? Looks better than making her fit into a generic female outfit/and body of the normal kind.

Regarding the ship: I thought you would name me a specific ship since I have no idea about the classes: USS Voyager, Enterprise-E/D, USS Defiant, USS Mirage, some Klingon ship... choose.

That is perfect already. And it's in the right color.

Try either the Enterprise E

Or Voyager:

Which ship would fit Miri to Command the most?

I don't know anything about the ships, but if I would have to go with what has the better interior to let Miranda stay out of the picture, it would be the Enterprise...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Enough with the Star Trek crap alright! It has nothing to do with Miranda or Mass Effect.

Why so mad? It's actually quite Miranda-related...

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 20 août 2012 - 07:31 .

[Ieldra]

Can we stay within the ME universe please?

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
After all, she is pragmatic and authoritarian.

No she isn't. If anything she resents authoritarian control. I would think this would be obvious by her anti-council stance and her hatred of her father. She is a pragmatist, not a fascist.

She resents control. She talks about this more than once.

If I was to make a guess about Miranda's political leaning, I'd say she was meritocratic. She wouldn't stand for anyone's incompetence regardless of the justification. If that means making a authoritarian decision here or there instead of listening to the voice of the public, she'd do it.

That's a much better description.

Sometimes, at some point, someone needs to make a decision. Pragmatism. The same thing happens with the Crucible. You simply make the authoritarian choice that you deem best.

But you're still foolish if you Refuse. Which IS full retard.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

I disagree that TIM is selfish. But I do not see the purpose of bringing this up.
Her selflessness does not preclude Miranda being authoritarian or meritocratic.

It's relevant insofar as she trusts TIM, for example, to lead Cerberus because she believes he is acting with humanity's best interests at heart. This is a bit like a soldier respecting the command structure up until the point that she realises that her commanding officer is corrupt.

Being "authoritarian" is not really an inherent or immutable trait. Respecting authority is something that makes sense in certain circumstances, but not in others. Miranda's behavior reflects this.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can we stay within the ME universe please?

OMG. We do not have to be caught up with what you are talking about all the time. It's nice to talk about a cross over for a change. It's not going to get us into trouble because we're still talking about Miri!

My God you all need to stop discriminating the hell out of even the smallest difference!

I'm so sick of limitations.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 20 août 2012 - 07:43 .

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...
Well, again, i think you're oversimplifying. Miranda has no problem with authority, depending on the circumstances. She can be a good soldier and XO.

But she does have a problem with abuse of authority, in essence. That is why she would never conform to her father's wishes and rebelled against him. And basically, that is why she rebels in this case.

Ordering to kill Shepard hardly constitutes as an abuse of authority from an organization such as Cerberus. Rather, it is more about who is being killed and over what.
Miranda is willing to sacrifice people to achieve the objective. Executing those who just saved humanity over a disagreement over the spoils simply shows a level of callousness she does not possess.

As for her father, Miranda rebelled not just because he wished to control every aspect of her life but also because he pursued only selfish goals whereas Cerberus actually served a greater purpose, even if TIM is just as domineering as Henry Lawson.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can we stay within the ME universe please?

Honestly, if some fans want to mess around with Miranda in a Starfleet uniform, I fuly support that decision

[Asakawa]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can we stay within the ME universe please?

need a hug?

(haha sorry, had to joke about it XD that's so much like the poor abandoned dog at the pouring rain like line)

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
As for her father, Miranda rebelled not just because he wished to control every aspect of her life but also because
he pursued only selfish goals whereas Cerberus actually served a greater purpose, even if TIM is just as domineering as Henry Lawson.

Well, she rebelled for both reasons, obviously, as you say. But the reasons are related. He wanted to control every aspect of her life because his motivations were selfish. And it's clear from conversations with Miranda that TIM was very careful to placate Miranda when it came to aspects of Cerberus' behavior of which she did not approve.

Miranda leaves Cerberus the moment TIM behaves too much like her father, basically, with regard to herself and Shepard. This is a mistake he had not previously made. Or once, at the CS, but he was able to explain it away temporarily.

Clearly, Miranda's attitude has never been some simplistic idea that authority is always good. Situationally, it can be good, if it serves the right objectives.

Modifié par flemm, 20 août 2012 - 07:49 .

[fiendishchicken]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Enough with the Star Trek crap alright! It has nothing to do with Miranda or Mass Effect.

Calm the **** down. We are merely discussing something else for Miri. We do not have to be caught up with what YOU are talking about.<_<

This is the Miranda character thread. Not some TNG post for you to 'speculate on what kind of starfleet ship Miranda would fly.' 

You're more than welcome to leave and go to some other thread or network to post this stuff. 

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 20 août 2012 - 07:46 .

[lillitheris]

fiendishchicken wrote...

You're more than welcome to leave and go to some other thread or network to post this stuff.

That’s a two-way piece of advice.