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"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


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#67951
wright1978

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BringBackNihlus wrote...

krukow wrote...

I agree with that to a point, but stuff that is explicitly shown in game shouldn't be head canoned away. If you're going to do that, just rename the characters and make it your own story.

Just my opinion.


Yes, but Shepard's "survival" is explicity shown in the game with the "Shepard lives" cutscene, and I am STILL forced to headcanon away about what happens afterwards, just as it was pre-EC, and BioWare actually encourages this garbage. It's BS.


What bugs me is that Shep lives scenario is just dumped at the end and not integrated and given exposition with in the epilogue. Would have been so hard for them to have Shep voicing the epilogue or had the epilogue dialogue change, or seen Shep being rescued from rubble. Instead they went for the utterly cheap option of putting no effort in and claiming ambiguity is good. I can head canon Shep re-uniting with Miranda but i'm annoyed as anythign that Shep lives has been left vague and ambiguous.

#67952
Guest_BringBackNihlus_*

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wright1978 wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

krukow wrote...

I agree with that to a point, but stuff that is explicitly shown in game shouldn't be head canoned away. If you're going to do that, just rename the characters and make it your own story.

Just my opinion.


Yes, but Shepard's "survival" is explicity shown in the game with the "Shepard lives" cutscene, and I am STILL forced to headcanon away about what happens afterwards, just as it was pre-EC, and BioWare actually encourages this garbage. It's BS.


What bugs me is that Shep lives scenario is just dumped at the end and not integrated and given exposition with in the epilogue. Would have been so hard for them to have Shep voicing the epilogue or had the epilogue dialogue change, or seen Shep being rescued from rubble. Instead they went for the utterly cheap option of putting no effort in and claiming ambiguity is good. I can head canon Shep re-uniting with Miranda but i'm annoyed as anythign that Shep lives has been left vague and ambiguous.


Just as it was pre-EC, as well. I figure it's just some device that the Walters/Hudson created to fuel the speculation/imagination crusade that BioWare is on right now. What an awesome way to end an amazing trilogy that ends the story arc of an all-time great protagonist. With ambuguity.

FFS

#67953
wright1978

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BringBackNihlus wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

krukow wrote...

I agree with that to a point, but stuff that is explicitly shown in game shouldn't be head canoned away. If you're going to do that, just rename the characters and make it your own story.

Just my opinion.


Yes, but Shepard's "survival" is explicity shown in the game with the "Shepard lives" cutscene, and I am STILL forced to headcanon away about what happens afterwards, just as it was pre-EC, and BioWare actually encourages this garbage. It's BS.


What bugs me is that Shep lives scenario is just dumped at the end and not integrated and given exposition with in the epilogue. Would have been so hard for them to have Shep voicing the epilogue or had the epilogue dialogue change, or seen Shep being rescued from rubble. Instead they went for the utterly cheap option of putting no effort in and claiming ambiguity is good. I can head canon Shep re-uniting with Miranda but i'm annoyed as anythign that Shep lives has been left vague and ambiguous.


Just as it was pre-EC, as well. I figure it's just some device that the Walters/Hudson created to fuel the speculation/imagination crusade that BioWare is on right now. What an awesome way to end an amazing trilogy that ends the story arc of an all-time great protagonist. With ambuguity.

FFS


Yep they are happy to end ambiguity of control ending with a big ode to control Shep but act ashamed that there even is a Shep lives ending by dumping it on the end like garbage.

#67954
Discotheque

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Taboo-XX wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

So, for the moment, I'm at a stand still sadly. Also, Schools starting soon so I'll have EVEN MOAR holding me back. Yay.


Is my writing really that moving/tear jerking?


It makes me feel things (wat). That's a good thing. If your material is stirring emotions you've done your job.

When I read things like that I picture them in my head. Your text turns into images in my head.

I have to develop my own canon with pictures this way as my writing is terrible. But that's just how I think.



 I agree with taboo, It does make you feel , and I enjoyed your writing Lance

#67955
Ieldra

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BringBackNihlus wrote...
What about the concept or ideas do you like? I feel like everything is completely derailed by the inclusion of the Catalyst. All they had built up about the Reapers being "a nation, independent, free of all weakness," which is directly pulled from the Reaper God himself, Sovereign, for two full games was run off the tracks in ME3.

That's POV information, what Sovereign - who wasn't the Reaper God but the sentinel they left behind to watch civilizations advance - believed the Reapers to be. Turns out Sovereign was wrong about themselves being independent, but how independent is anyone, really? Your will is alway shaped by the forces that made you, be it random chance or deliberate design.

You come to find out that the Reapers are not a nation, independent ("independent" being the operative word in my argument) and free of all weakness, they are captors of some sort of higher power that orders them to destroy all organic life (that can threaten them) to save us from our own creations. You find out that the antagonists for the entire series aren't there to conquer the galaxy just to destroy us or to sustain themselves and increase their numbers, and something that simple would have sufficed for me.  They are now there to save you from yourselves. Nothing about that I like.

Would you really have liked a "conquer the galaxy" or "Reaperduction" scenario better? It would have been boring, simplistic, a plot we've seen a million times before, and it would have told us nothing new about the ME universe. I've always suspected there was more to it than that, with the Reapers' claim to "ascension", Harbinger's "We are Harbinger" and the plausible speculation we've had since ME2 that they're avatars of civilizations of past cycles. To see those suspicions come to nothing would have been an epic disappointment.

Even the Catalyst was mostly invalidated by its presentation and narrative inconsistencies. As a concept it made perfect sense. What power could shape the will of something like the Reapers but an "AI god"? What other explanation for the unified purpose of the Reapers - who were made from diverse species but mysteriously follow the same directive - could there be? Granted, even disregarding the presentation and narrative inconsistencies, it takes a great deal of emotional detachment to come to terms with it, but in cases like this, where human standards clearly don't apply, that should be obvious to anyone. IMO the greatest mistake people make is treating the Catalyst as your run-of-the-mill antagonist blown up to a galactic scale. It isn't that. It is not human, and approaching it with the mindset you bring to standard video game villains is inappropriate.  

When I said I like the concepts that went into the ending, I mostly meant the final choice. But as you see, that also applies to the other elements. As I see it, the flaws lie only in the execution - from Shepard's space-magicky sacrifice in Synthesis and the presentation of the Catalyst as some sort of pseudo-divinity to the narrative inconsistency with the Rannoch plot if you made peace.

Edit: Also, a reunion scene could have been done in a completely tasteful way without making it cheesy and over-the-top. I don't see why a reunion scene = sunshine and rainbows. It can be done in a bittersweet way.

It could. Still it would have given you a personal stake in one of the ending scenarios, which would've been absent in the others. The writers clearly wanted to minimize the personal stake in favor of the big picture, and I'm totally fine with that.

Edit:
I'm also perfectly fine with having to headcanon things. The problem with the original endings was that they didn't provide ground solid enough to reasonably speculate from, so that it felt like you're speculating in a vacuum. Not fun. Now with the EC, I'm fine with the way things are.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 août 2012 - 08:16 .


#67956
jtav

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I apologize for harping on this, but I just wrote a little scene referring to the infertility. It just makes no sense. Wanting a child is fine, but Miranda is so obsessed with Oriana being safe and normal that she has to be convinced to let Ori know she exists. How could she ever hope to give a child a conventional upbringing while also overseeing "the most dangerous and risky operations Cerberus undertakes?"

#67957
lillitheris

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^ I’m not sure what your argument here is? I’d agree that she doesn’t seem particularly bent on that.

#67958
jtav

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Miranda wants a child, but she regards the life she leads as so dangerous that Ori can't even know she exists. A child would be even more closely connected to her.

#67959
lillitheris

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Do we know that she wants a child? The diagnosis could have come from anything, really…yearly checkup, irregularity, even pain…

#67960
wright1978

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jtav wrote...

Miranda wants a child, but she regards the life she leads as so dangerous that Ori can't even know she exists. A child would be even more closely connected to her.


Yeah it doesn't make any sense for Miranda to plan a child immediately. Really to make even a tiny amount of sense you have to rationalise it as her planning ahead for the day when her life might be safe enough to consider having a child.

#67961
Ieldra

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jtav wrote...
I apologize for harping on this, but I just wrote a little scene referring to the infertility. It just makes no sense. Wanting a child is fine, but Miranda is so obsessed with Oriana being safe and normal that she has to be convinced to let Ori know she exists. How could she ever hope to give a child a conventional upbringing while also overseeing "the most dangerous and risky operations Cerberus undertakes?"

I think she doesn't necessarily want a child, but she may consider herself "lesser" by not being able to have one. Another fallout of her father's upbringing, who no doubt used any opportunity to break her spirit and make her into exactly what he wanted.

Not that I like that particular scenario, but at least this doesn't fall back on her as a character and it makes a little more sense than the alternative. Probably this would make the best of the bad situation with the dossier.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 août 2012 - 01:50 .


#67962
Taboo

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I think the authorial intent of the Shadow Broker Dossiers is pretty clear...

The build up leads to a sexual encounter followed by a medical statement stating she is incapable of having a child. It's awful and doesn't make a lick of sense but then again a lot of the info in there doesn't.

Some of it is simply cut and paste. For example Tali is looking up relationship books regardless of Shepard's gender. The FemShep romance was cut before release, it makes no sense to have it in there. They made no effort to change it for her. And then it still refers to poor FemShep as a man.

I prefer to believe that the simplest interpretation is often the correct one. Occam's Razor.

And no I don't like it either, just so you know. But not because of the horrid Virgin or the *hore idealology. It just doesn't make sense timewise.

#67963
Stalker

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I thought about my interpretation on the dossiers a lot lately and now come to the conclusion she was just curious. She had sexual desires like everyone else and the infertility maybe added to that in a way she got curious about it.

I don't believe she seriously wanted a child at some point in her life, considering the situation with Oriana (mentioned and explained above) and the situation with Cerberus (she is high-ranked officer, about to start the biggest operation of her lifetime).

I don't know the exact circumstances of the tumor and I am certainly no doctor, but I am very sure having sex with random guys is a hilariously bad way to get pregnant in a sci-fi world where it's possible to recreate dead people's bodies. 


I can see the writers' intention was different, but it doesn't make sense the way it was intended.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 21 août 2012 - 02:44 .


#67964
flemm

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Whatever. I just don't care that much about the dossier. It's mainly a sign that responsability for the character changed hands at that point. And *making sense* was no longer a requirement.

Everybody's headcanon is perfectly valid, of course Posted Image

Modifié par flemm, 21 août 2012 - 02:46 .


#67965
kaymarierose

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BringBackNihlus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Well if your Shepard made it out he did find Miranda or she found him. Bioware has given you that ability.

It isn't so much about finding her now as it is about getting more of her in the game.

#MoreMiranda

Yes?

Also, I'd get behind a #MoreMiranda image if someone would be so kind to make it. B)


About that...

Posted Image 

Yes, no?

#67966
Taboo

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Mr Massakka wrote...

I don't know the exact circumstances of the tumor and I am certainly no doctor, but I am very sure having sex with random guys is a hilariously bad way to get pregnant in a sci-fi world where it's possible to recreate dead people's bodies. 


I can see the writers' intention was different, but it doesn't make sense the way it was intended.


It has to be pretty bad to prevent pregnancy. There are some awful pictures I looked at. These things can be the size of grapefruits. It IS a uterine fibroid. The game lists it as a neoplasm, which is the same thing.

Here's a picture of one if you dare. It's been removed and is lying on a medical table. It isn't that hard to look at but it gives you an idea of what we're dealing with.

Imagine that being stuffed within a uterus.

I think it's best to just...come to your own conclusions.

And as flemm has said, there is no wrong interpretation. And given the nonsense that this has caused you can't get by without making some guesses.

#67967
MisterJB

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It seems to me the purpose of the dossiers is clear. Miranda wanted a family which included a husband and a child, Character-Plot coherence be damned, and the dossier was meant to prepare us for this theme to monopolize her role in ME3.

Grrr.

#67968
Taboo

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kaymarierose wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Well if your Shepard made it out he did find Miranda or she found him. Bioware has given you that ability.

It isn't so much about finding her now as it is about getting more of her in the game.

#MoreMiranda

Yes?

Also, I'd get behind a #MoreMiranda image if someone would be so kind to make it. B)


About that...

Posted Image 

Yes, no?


I'll use it Miss Rose. I'll get it some exposure over in the story forums.

#67969
flemm

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kaymarierose wrote...

About that...

Posted Image 

Yes, no?



Yes, definitely Posted Image

#67970
Taboo

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MisterJB wrote...

It seems to me the purpose of the dossiers is clear. Miranda wanted a family which included a husband and a child, Character-Plot coherence be damned, and the dossier was meant to prepare us for this theme to monopolize her role in ME3.

Grrr.


Not everyone was shocked by this development.

Some of us where simply flabbergasted that it was presented so poorly.

#67971
kaymarierose

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I'll use it Miss Rose. I'll get it some exposure over in the story forums.


I figured most of us are waiting for the "...I'm not" from bioware. *shrugs*

#67972
Taboo

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kaymarierose wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'll use it Miss Rose. I'll get it some exposure over in the story forums.


I figured most of us are waiting for the "...I'm not" from bioware. *shrugs*


I think it's a good thing that people are this dedicated. And if it gets us more Miranda I won't complain.

I thought it was a good idea so I posted it.

You have taken my idea and made into a far better reality than I could have.

So props to you ma'am.

#67973
fiendishchicken

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kaymarierose wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'll use it Miss Rose. I'll get it some exposure over in the story forums.


I figured most of us are waiting for the "...I'm not" from bioware. *shrugs*


I love the hashtag! <3

 I will rock this everywhere! 

"How can you not love Liara though? She's blue!" 

#67974
kaymarierose

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I think it's a good thing that people are this dedicated. And if it gets us more Miranda I won't complain.

I thought it was a good idea so I posted it.

You have taken my idea and made into a far better reality than I could have.

So props to you ma'am.


Why, thank you.

Posted Image 

#67975
lillitheris

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Mr Massakka wrote...

I thought about my interpretation on the dossiers a lot lately and now come to the conclusion she was just curious. She had sexual desires like everyone else and the infertility maybe added to that in a way she got curious about it.


As with many things, I think the interpretation of the dossier says a lot about the reader. Maybe more than the writer.

I never got the vibe that she was looking to get pregnant. Busy professional, casual sex, prudent about STDs. Never thought the infertility result was specifically related to wanting to have children.

Edit: I’m not saying I’m right (for a change^_^), just that I saw the dossier apparently vastly differently from many of you.

Modifié par lillitheris, 21 août 2012 - 03:12 .