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[Han Shot First]

I won't speculate on writer's intent.

Just looking at the content, it makes no sense for Miranda to attempt to get pregnant before jumping into a suicide mission. As such I can only conclude that she did it just for the sex, regardless of what the writers may or may not have had in mind.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 21 août 2012 - 05:30 .

[Stalker]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Miranda hooked up on a dating site pre ME2. Being the detail obsessed control freak* she is, she demanded medical checks for STDs and the like (settling for nothing but the best) and finally got an acceptable match. Some time later she gets a pregnancy scare and again being detail obsessed... you get the picture, gets herself checked out (peeing on a stick ain't good enough). And that's when good old pre-green Doc Banner tells her she can't have kids at all. Bam!

supported

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

As to why she would choose such an inpractical method to conceive? I honestly don't know.

Occam’s razor (now with 5 blades!): she’s not trying to conceive.

Would you care to adress the rest of what I posted?

I have! From earlier: there is no direct implication that she went there because of infertility. You’re making an assumption even beyond the chronology. A neoplasm can be uncomfortable or painful. There are any number of reasons why she goes to doctor, doctor tests, treatment, prenatal specialist confirms she can’t have babies.

[flemm]

I have this feeling that you two are probably never going to agree on this. So... probably time to let it go

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

As to why she would choose such an inpractical method to conceive? I honestly don't know.

Occam’s razor (now with 5 blades!): she’s not trying to conceive.

Would you care to adress the rest of what I posted?

I have! From earlier: there is no direct implication that she went there because of infertility. You’re making an assumption even beyond the chronology. A neoplasm can be uncomfortable or painful. There are any number of reasons why she goes to doctor, doctor tests, treatment, prenatal specialist confirms she can’t have babies.

No you haven't. You did the exact same thing to him that you did to me.

I know you're smart enough to pick up the implications behind the order of the emails. You're more than intelligent enough to get this.

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Authorial intent is Occam's Razor here, not your head canon.

You know damn good and well what the point is. Damn good and well. You have dragged this out for multiple pages and ingnored my points by chopping my posts to bits.

I have absolutely no idea what your point is, honestly.

You’ve shown no conclusive proof that she’s trying to get pregnant. The simplest explanations point away from that theory.

It is certainly possible that she was, but I think for example CrutchCricket’s summary above is much more likely.

Modifié par lillitheris, 21 août 2012 - 05:33 .

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Authorial intent is Occam's Razor here, not your head canon.

You know damn good and well what the point is. Damn good and well. You have dragged this out for multiple pages and ingnored my points by chopping my posts to bits.

I have absolutely no idea what your point is, honestly.

You’ve shown no conclusive proof that she’s trying to get pregnant. The simplest explanations point away from that theory.

It is certainly possible that she was, but I think for example Han’s summary above is much more likely.

Yes. You. Do.

You are asking me to prove something against authorial intent. You are asking me to prove YOUR theory. You're going to ask me to provide proof of an omnipotent being next.

Occam's Razor suggests the obvious through the ordering of the emails.

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You are asking me to prove something against authorial intent. You are asking me to prove YOUR theory. You're going to ask me to provide proof of an omnipotent being next.

You haven’t even proven this authorial intent. You’ve invented it and are treating it as fact. It might be, but it also might not be.

Occam's Razor suggests the obvious through the ordering of the emails.

That’s not how it works.

Edit: let me expand.

You could make the argument that the razor implies that there is ordering to the emails, and that it is intentional. That’s definitely a valid case to make.

However, it does not imply that the inference that she was trying to get pregnant is the correct one.

Modifié par lillitheris, 21 août 2012 - 05:39 .

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...
And yeah, her treatment of the men was apalling and would make any Shep not already locked in drop her like a hot rock.

I don't see what was so apalling about it. Both sides were interested in one thing, sex (the reasons for wishing are up for debate). If the man presented wasn't up to Miranda's standards, she would simply disconnect.
Shepard either just wants sex in which case he can reasonably expect it if he meets her standards. Or he wants a more meaningfull relationship which he can also reasonably expect it because her treatment of him greatly differs from her business-like approach to the dating site.

[Han Shot First]

CrutchCricket wrote...


Miranda hooked up on a dating site pre ME2. Being the detail obsessed control freak* she is, she demanded medical checks for STDs and the like (settling for nothing but the best) and finally got an acceptable match. Some time later she gets a pregnancy scare and again being detail obsessed... you get the picture, gets herself checked out (peeing on a stick ain't good enough). And that's when good old pre-green Doc Banner tells her she can't have kids at all. Bam!

I think this is as plausible an explanation as any.

Consider that high levels of stress can have an impact on a woman's cycle.
 
Suicide missions stressful? Check.

Miranda misses her period and being sexually active, thinks she may have gotten pregnant. She schedules a doctor's exam. At the exam she then gets hit with a bombshell.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 21 août 2012 - 05:40 .

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
I have! From earlier: there is no direct implication that she went there because of infertility. You’re making an assumption even beyond the chronology. A neoplasm can be uncomfortable or painful. There are any number of reasons why she goes to doctor, doctor tests, treatment, prenatal specialist confirms she can’t have babies.

And you truly believe that the placement of two subjects that are inherently connected; sex and natality; in such a chronological order was merely a coincidence rather than the intention of the developers?

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You are asking me to prove something against authorial intent. You are asking me to prove YOUR theory. You're going to ask me to provide proof of an omnipotent being next.

You haven’t even proven this authorial intent. You’ve invented it and are treating it as fact. It might be, but it also might not be.

Occam's Razor suggests the obvious through the ordering of the emails.

That’s not how it works.

You say that the intent is not clear and insist that your opinion is correct. The answer is that we don't know. Therefore any interpretation is valid. The ordering of the emails suggests one thing to some people here, including myself.

It's also entirely possible that it's a mix of the two interpretations. Think on that.

I don't care what she's doing, I care about the time frame of three months that this was taking place in.

[Skullheart]

Well, the writer intention might be "dump Miranda, she's a wh0re. Pick a new romance with our approved LIs (dextro team, liara and vs)."

[krukow]

Skullheart wrote...

Well, the writer intention might be "dump Miranda, she's a wh0re. Pick a new romance with our approved LIs (dextro team, liara and vs)."

That would mean they were planning the plot elements of ME3 for years.  Which I don't believe...

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I have! From earlier: there is no direct implication that she went there because of infertility. You’re making an assumption even beyond the chronology. A neoplasm can be uncomfortable or painful. There are any number of reasons why she goes to doctor, doctor tests, treatment, prenatal specialist confirms she can’t have babies.

And you truly believe that the placement of two subjects that are inherently connected; sex and natality; in such a chronological order was merely a coincidence rather than the intention of the developers?

I won’t categorically say that it might not have been…but as I said, the CC explanation Han quoted above is far simpler. I read it similarly.

[kaymarierose]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Miranda hooked up on a dating site pre ME2. Being the detail obsessed control freak* she is, she demanded medical checks for STDs and the like (settling for nothing but the best) and finally got an acceptable match. Some time later she gets a pregnancy scare and again being detail obsessed... you get the picture, gets herself checked out (peeing on a stick ain't good enough). And that's when good old pre-green Doc Banner tells her she can't have kids at all. Bam!

That's how I see it. Good enough for me.

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You say that the intent is not clear and insist that your opinion is correct.

Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?

I actually have said multiple times that you can read it as seeking pregnancy, just that I do not think it is the natural explanation, and categorically that it is not proven to be correct.

[CrutchCricket]

Han Shot First wrote...
I think this is as plausible an explanation as any.

Consider that high levels of stress can have an impact on a woman's cycle.
 
Suicide missions stressful? Check.

Miranda misses her period and being sexually active, thinks she may have gotten pregnant. She schedules a doctor's exam. At the exam she then gets hit with a bombshell.

Indeed. The only thing I insist upon is that the dating logs (and by extension the hookups) could not have hapened during ME2. I think it is far more likely they happened during Shep's rebuilding. The results of the test might've come to her during the game however.

Alternate interpretation away! (I'm probably going to draw some hatred for this)

Miranda recieved the results just before ME2 and is major depressed by them. Hence why she's cold and ****y at the start and why she buries herself in her work. Therefore all that stuff she says about believing in Cerberus, that's just her avoiding her personal problems by burying herself in her work. By ME3 she got better and is back to dealing with the personal.

*hides before tomatoes and bricks come flying*

[MisterJB]

krukow wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

Well, the writer intention might be "dump Miranda, she's a wh0re. Pick a new romance with our approved LIs (dextro team, liara and vs)."

That would mean they were planning the plot elements of ME3 for years.  Which I don't believe...

In ME3, Miranda speaks of marriage and children as things she could never have.
In the dossier, we see Miranda buying a counsel book on relationships and undergoing fertility tests.

So, I do believe this debacle had been planned for some time.

[lillitheris]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Indeed. The only thing I insist upon is that the dating logs (and by extension the hookups) could not have hapened during ME2. I think it is far more likely they happened during Shep's rebuilding. The results of the test might've come to her during the game however.

I would accept that interpretation, certainly. I still think it’s possible that this occurs during shore leave, but the SR2 model name was known far earlier than Shepard’s awakening, and there’s no reason Miranda might not have been to Omega or Illium on business during that period, for example.

…

@MisterJB: It’s not a ‘fertility test’ (necessarily) if the implication is ‘test specifically intended to determine fertility without any external motivations’. Those findings could come from any checkup, or they could be follow-ups to the discovery of the neoplasm.

Modifié par lillitheris, 21 août 2012 - 05:52 .

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You say that the intent is not clear and insist that your opinion is correct.

Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?

I actually have said multiple times that you can read it as seeking pregnancy, just that I do not think it is the natural explanation, and categorically that it is not proven to be correct.

From you, everytime you start these things. Every time. You had the same issue with the discussion about Love Scenes a while back. Concepts, aesthetics, frames, interpretations. 

You have spent the last few pages talking about other things.

The point is is that we don't know. Casual sex is not the issue for me here, putting it within a logical time frame during the game is.

Crutch Crickets explanation is far better than anything I've come up with.

[Stalker]

I see... more and more people start recognizing the writers' intentions.

From the beginning she was supposed to take the role of the family woman who can't have a family and therefore hides behind her work. Like it or not.

[hot_heart]

Apologies if I'm behind on things, but I figured I'd jump in with some points.

lillitheris wrote...
I never got the vibe that she was looking to get pregnant. Busy professional, casual sex, prudent about STDs. Never thought the infertility result was specifically related to wanting to have children.

Edit: I’m not saying I’m right (for a change[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]), just that I saw the dossier apparently vastly differently from many of you.

That's actually how I saw it, the first time I read it. And upon rereading it, I still hold to that. With the way the Shintonial Abraxas thing is phrased, it sounds more like an STD rather than her trying to look out for something a child might inherit.

krukow wrote...
Even for a no-strings one-time thing, a person like Miranda is going to want to make sure the other person is at least attractive (if the sex is the point). The fact that she didn't is the biggest arguement that the sex wasn't the point.

Actually, if you read the iPartner confirmation thingie it features the following titbit:

We have reviewed your application to join the iPartner group and are happy to accept you into the exclusive Diamond Circle, where the best meet the best! iPartner is proud to present you with our exclusive Diamond Circle benefits:

-Access your account as often as you wish
-Unrestricted membership search across 23 systems
-Review potential iPartners in full 360 vision*
-Guaranteed first choice placement of your personal dossie

Modifié par hot_heart, 21 août 2012 - 05:55 .

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

From you, everytime you start these things. Every time. You had the same issue with the discussion about Love Scenes a while back. Concepts, aesthetics, frames, interpretations.

You have spent the last few pages talking about other things.

You’re having some imaginary discussion about “Concepts, aesthetics, frames, interpretations.”  I can’t help you with that.

Crutch Crickets explanation is far better than anything I've come up with.

You’re a funny guy.

[Han Shot First]

Skullheart wrote...

Well, the writer intention might be "dump Miranda, she's a wh0re. Pick a new romance with our approved LIs (dextro team, liara and vs)."

Back in 2010 when I used to be a regular in the old Miranda thread, I didn't quite understand the raging at the revelation that Miranda had casual sex with someone other than Shepard.

Then again, I also don't understand the fixation some gamers have with romanceable characters in a game being virginal. I faceplamed with Liara, Tali, and Merrill's (DA2) reveal. (though there is some debate about whether Liara meant physical sex, or just the act of melding) In contrast I liked that the writers had Miranda be sexually active.

I think it says more about the insecurity of the person ranting about Miranda's supposed promiscuity than it does about the character, to be honest. I think some men are intimidated by sexually active women because it threatends their masculinity. "OMG...what if one of those past lovers was better than me?" Also a woman who is sexually active tuns counter to the traditional view of a woman as subserviant and the property of either her father or husband, depending on marital status. It represents a woman being in control of her sexuality rather than a man. I think those issues are operating on a subconcious level. In this case, I think the players are projecting their insecurities onto Shepard.

And yes, I'm singling out men. Somehow I doubt that too many female gamers were bothered by the reveal that Miranda had a lover other than Shepard.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 21 août 2012 - 06:01 .