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[Ghost Warrior]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
Reaper tech is the Very thing we fight against. IF not used properly, It would end up being our downfall.

That is akin to saying that we fight our enemy's guns instead of the enemies themselves. Reaper technology not some evil mojo, it is a tool. A dangerous tool, yes, possibly even too dangerous to leave in Cerberus' hands in spite of the possible benefits. But we fight the Reapers themselves. Using a technologically superior enemy's weapons against them has always been a valid strategy - if you could pull it off.

Yes,and I think it's worth the risk.

[Ieldra]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
Ok. but the base held an actually reaper, being raise and created by processed humans. Using a base that did that would have been indeed a betrayal. I share Miri's perspective on this.

Why?

What does the base's past have to do with our decision? "this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

I think it's pretty obvious, btw, that Miranda has similar ethical principles as Mordin. "Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity."

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 août 2011 - 05:38 .

[MisterJB]

drwells123 wrote...
I always wondered why you couldn't just give the base to the Alliance.

What for? The Alliance is just as bad as Cerberus, maybe worse since they are more powerful.

ViSeirA wrote...
I'm not using one of his guns? I'm gonna end up using it eventually,

Do you trust Cerberus to share what they find inside the base?

and let me remind you how the Turians made the Thanix Cannons, which are essentially a smaller version of Sovereign's main gun... ah the irony.

You want to talk about irony? Do you remember what we did to Sovereign before the Turians could repurpose its gun?
We destroyed Sovereign, we didn't try to take it alive.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Meh, I still destroy it either way. Again, it's a matter or preference. I have many reason why I should destroy it (I just can't say cuz I'll get ninja'd).

And you have your reasons to keep it. It's all preference.

And I guess I pretty much think how Miri and Mordin think.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 01 août 2011 - 05:40 .

[ViSeiRa]

LuxDragon wrote...

ViSeirA wrote...

I have no reliable source, but unless Shepard was not actually dead there's no way to bring someone back from the dead without using something akin to reaper technology, something that kept even abominations like the husks going, I reckon this is gonna be some plot twist in ME3 but right now you can say I'm wrong about this.

And any technology can be repurposed, Alfred Nobel never had the intention of mass murder when he invented the dynamite, did he? the technology in the reaper (collector) base can be used against them in any number of ways, by destroying it you're effectively giving the middle finger to all the people in the galaxy not just humans.

Analogy: A killer is haunting you, he has all kinds of firearms, guns and so on... your code of honor obligates you to only fight with a sword, how smart are you now if you don't say "to hell with my code"?

He was dead and Jacob already said that cutting-edge tech was used to bring him back. Don't give Reapers all the credit. Human ingenunity counts for something and Miranda was in charge.

So, yes. I'm going with your wrong unless BW says otherwise.

And technology we don't have any understanding about before we're ready is dangerous. We dropped an A-Bomb in New Mexico to test it out and then sent U.S. soliders to look around like idiots, not knowing about the radiation. When we broke that barrier of nuclear arms, we had others emulated it and create the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Tech can be repurposed. And doing so can be dangerous. For them and for us.

And Cerberus has a lousy track record.

And when you have the opportunity to study that technology you just waste it? and you should check the history of any clandestine organization, the CIA, the KGB (now the SVR for external intelligence)... most of what's advertised and known of their work is the failures, not the successes, and Cerberus is no exception.

"Success in the intelligence world is a buried secret while failure is a world wide scandal."

Modifié par ViSeirA, 01 août 2011 - 05:43 .

[Ieldra]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
Meh, I still destroy it either way. Again, it's a matter or preference. I have many reason why I should destroy it (I just can't say cuz I'll get ninja'd).

And you have your reasons to keep it. It's all preference.

Yes, but not all preferences are equally valid from a strategic point of view.

[TheMarshal]

drwells123 wrote...

It seems that *everyone* condemns you if you don't blow up the base. You'd expect more diversity of opinion, so maybe it's just some heavy-handed foreshadowing? I wonder if that was simply the best line they could come up with to fit Miranda into that straitjacket along with everyone else?

I always wondered why you couldn't just give the base to the Alliance. Worst-case scenario is that EDI already sent the Reaper IFF to Cerberus, but the Alliance should still be able to reach the base before Tim manages to completely dismantle it.

Of course, the same Alliance couldn't even get over to Ilos before Vigil's battery ran out...

I would have loved to be able to send in a team of my own to do research, courtesy of the Shadow Broker, but I imagine Cerberus would have gotten there first no matter what, and I had no intention of making them any stronger than I had to.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
We destroyed Sovereign, we didn't try to take it alive.

Because we couldn't. If there had been the possibility, you can bet that people would've tried.

[Ghost Warrior]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
Ok. but the base held an actually reaper, being raise and created by processed humans. Using a base that did that would have been indeed a betrayal. I share Miri's perspective on this.

Why?

What does the base's past have to do with our decision? "this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

I think it's pretty obvious, btw, that Miranda has similar ethical principles as Mordin. "Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity."

I completely agree.I can only see two reasonable reasons for destroying it:
1. Reaper tech could be dangerous
2. Cerberus can't be trusted

I completely understand people who destroy it out of those reason,even if I don't agree.But I can't understand people who destroy it because if its past.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
Meh, I still destroy it either way. Again, it's a matter or preference. I have many reason why I should destroy it (I just can't say cuz I'll get ninja'd).

And you have your reasons to keep it. It's all preference.

Yes, but not all preferences are equally valid from a strategic point of view.

Yes I know. I'm not thinking of your preference as inferior don't worry. It's pretty good actually, but only for you and not me. 

I have my own strategies lol.

[ViSeiRa]

MisterJB wrote...

ViSeirA wrote...
I'm not using one of his guns? I'm gonna end up using it eventually,

Do you trust Cerberus to share what they find inside the base?

How about the Turians? the Asari? or the Salarians? would you really blame any of them if they used this technology for their benefit as much as you'd blame Cerberus? 

and let me remind you how the Turians made the Thanix Cannons, which are essentially a smaller version of Sovereign's main gun... ah the irony.

You want to talk about irony? Do you remember what we did to Sovereign before the Turians could repurpose its gun?
We destroyed Sovereign, we didn't try to take it alive.

Of course we tried to kill it, it was trying to kill us, imagine if we had 3 or 4 Thanix cannons on the Destiney Acension back then, it'd have cut through the Geth like butter and imagine if the entire Citadel fleet could have been outfitted with them, the attack would have been negligble.

And now that you basically have the chance to truly understand the reaper's technology and use its full potential against them you decide to destroy it.

P.S.: I think we should take this to PMs (or not) since it's not related to Miranda anymore.

[jtav]

My rationale is simple. I know I'm in the kind of story where studying the base won't turn out well.

[LuxDragon]

^ This. Oh, yeah, that and Cerberus is back to killing you again. If that's the case, there's no way in hell I'm give TIM the base now. But back to Miranda people! Miranda!

Modifié par LuxDragon, 01 août 2011 - 05:50 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

I completely agree.I can only see two reasonable reasons for destroying it:
1. Reaper tech could be dangerous
2. Cerberus can't be trusted

I do it for these too. But I also do it because TIM wants to use such a Horrid Base which My Crew and I busted our asses to get through while seeing someone get processed in front of my eyes and losing people.

A traumatizing place that should be blown to hell, but again that's just IMO.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 01 août 2011 - 05:58 .

[TheMarshal]

jtav wrote...

My rationale is simple. I know I'm in the kind of story where studying the base won't turn out well.

You think "Paragon == I Win" in ME3?  I'm hoping at least SOME of the renegade choices turn out to be the better option.  Or at least get fewer people killed, just for the sake of balance.

[Sebby]

TheMarshal wrote...

jtav wrote...

My rationale is simple. I know I'm in the kind of story where studying the base won't turn out well.

You think "Paragon == I Win" in ME3?  I'm hoping at least SOME of the renegade choices turn out to be the better option.  Or at least get fewer people killed, just for the sake of balance.

Some renegade choices turning out better? Surely you jest? ME2 showed us that Bioware doesn't put that much effort into the morality paths or take them all that seriously judging by the way the save/sacrifice the council decision ends up degenerating into some petty choice on whether the player wants them to live or how Krogans don't care one way or another about the Rachni queen's fate but mention how they're pissed about Shepard destroying Saren's genophage cure.

[The Elder King]

The problem is not if we, as Shepard, decided to keep the CB or not. (in my opinion there are reasons to choose both). The problem is why Miranda is so against it. Her personality is similar to Mordin (and with Legion's programs), but she acts completely different from both. Though it's true that both Mordin and Legion later seemed to agree with the destruction, so maybe BW made mistakes with squadmates's opinion during and after the CB.

[Sebby]

What's jarring about Miranda being against keeping the base due to some petty moral reason is that back on the lazarus space station she was shown to be very cold and ruthless when she described the remaining personnel as being expendable. Also, she was in favor of controlling people with a control chip.

RIP pre-freedom's progress Miranda

Modifié par Seboist, 01 août 2011 - 06:07 .

[MisterJB]

Ghost Warrior wrote...
I completely agree.I can only see two reasonable reasons for destroying it:
1. Reaper tech could be dangerous
2. Cerberus can't be trusted

3-We do not know what thecnology is there. The Base could be something extremely useful or it could simply be what it appears to be. A place to study a specie's potential for "ascension".
4-Giving the Base to Cerberus could antagonize the other races against Shepard and humanity.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Because we couldn't. If there had been the possibility, you can bet that people would've tried.

Which would be insane. An almost intact but still dead Reaper is already dangerous enough. A completely functional Reaper would just be too powerful to control.

ViSeirA wrote...
And now that you basically have the chance to truly understand the reaper's technology and use its full potential against them you decide to destroy it.

The Collector Base does not give you a full Reaper to study. It gives you pieces and parts of one, which we already have. Just maybe not in such good conditions. And that is, of course, depending on what had already been put into the Human Reaper that we destroyed.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

MisterJB wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...
I completely agree.I can only see two reasonable reasons for destroying it:
1. Reaper tech could be dangerous
2. Cerberus can't be trusted

3-We do not know what thecnology is there. The Base could be something extremely useful or it could simply be what it appears to be. A place to study a specie's potential for "ascension".
4-Giving the Base to Cerberus could antagonize the other races against Shepard and humanity.

This as well.

[Ghost Warrior]

MisterJB wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...
I completely agree.I can only see two reasonable reasons for destroying it:
1. Reaper tech could be dangerous
2. Cerberus can't be trusted

3-We do not know what thecnology is there. The Base could be something extremely useful or it could simply be what it appears to be. A place to study a specie's potential for "ascension".
4-Giving the Base to Cerberus could antagonize the other races against Shepard and humanity.

3. they were building a Reaper,there has to be at least some info on them.
4. yes,I kinda included that in 2.

[Caihn]

ViSeirA wrote...
Also how can anyone not classify the SM line as OOC

There are many reasons I already explained many times, and it concerns her character development, but there are also disagreements about this, and we can just agree to disagree.
But there is also something important to me in the CB line : she says "using anything from this base" not "studying". She knows how Cerberus works, and what it means to give such technology to TIM. Maybe he will study it but he also may try to use it. And yes, using anything from the CB seems like a betrayal to me and I'm not surprised that Miranda, as pragmatic she could be, thinks the same.
And I also find ridiculous to believe that a retarded race like humans could understand the CB technology during a so short period. Oh wait .. don't worry, Cerberus will miraculously find something useful, and we'll have to steal/get it to use it against reapers.

Modifié par Yannkee, 01 août 2011 - 06:17 .

[Melra]

I'd laugh my ass off, if keeping the base would actually result in furthering Reaper influence over Cerberus and causing them to have some additional extra powerful minions

[Sebby]

Melrache wrote...

I'd laugh my ass off, if keeping the base would actually result in furthering Reaper influence over Cerberus and causing them to have some additional extra powerful minions

That would result in renegades getting unique content, so we can safely rule that out.