82210 réponses à ce sujet

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

I kill characters I despise. I want then to go away and not infringe on my enjoyment of the universe. Miranda in ME3 comes perilously close to doing so. Were there no email, I probably would have made a point of Gibbing so that she died. The email saved her. The slides even more so. I really am quite easy to please. But the mindset behind her base game role needs to die.

Fortunately, I think there's already been a shift. See the Control slide where the personal and professional dovetail in a satisfying way.

Wow... Maybe you should be a fan of someone else.

You despise her because of what the writers did. Don't hold that against her. Really everything was good. It just went to **** in the translation process. I don't mind that much with what we're given, just that it's all we're given.

And to be honest, nobody knows for certain if the Reapers can be beat, even with the kwoosabull.

There were times were Shepard debated taking the Normandy, getting Miranda and Oriana, and just running, get the hell out and flee somewhere, anywhere.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 30 août 2012 - 04:47 .

[wright1978]

Taboo-XX wrote...

It isn't her fault. She's a non existent entity. It was written this way. Mac Walters didn't put her into the main plot more. Therefore she had to exist within that confines of a smaller role.

I'm not surprised by her plot developments, as I've stated ad nauseum. I've been expecting her to warm up for at least two years. I am surprised that this was all we saw.

That lack of focus makes her appear unbalanced. She's always going to want a family, a husband, everything. That's here to stay. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. Being exceptional and wanting normal things is not weird. She's human. She has basic wants and needs. That's human psychology.

But that doesn't mean something shouldn't be added to balance her out. She needs something pertaining to her past with Cerberus.

I don't view the bolded as a reasonable excuse. A properly rounded representation of Miranda could have been done within the confines of the amount of content she has. Whether it was sheer incompetence, malice,lack of thought or something else that lead to her atrocious content i guess we'll never know. What i do know is that DLC content could aid to balance her portrayal at least to a degree.

[flemm]

wright1978 wrote...

I don't view the bolded as a reasonable excuse. A properly rounded representation of Miranda could have been done within the confines of the amount of content she has. Whether it was sheer incompetence, malice,lack of thought or something else that lead to her atrocious content i guess we'll never know. What i do know is that DLC content could aid to balance her portrayal at least to a degree.

I agree with all of that. The "why" of it doesn't really matter much.

[Taboo]

I don't believe that. She has very little screen time. You can't give justification to satisfy everyone within those constraints. She has what? Maybe seven or eight minutes of content?

You can't give justification in that amount of time. You can't justify thirty hours in less than ten minutes.

Furthermore there are line constraints. They have to further the plot within the recording session time.

They could not possibly satisfy everyone in this thread in ten minutes.

[jtav]

Of course they could have. Because they did repeatedly with characters like Jack, Mordin, and Legion. Jack has a good bit less than Miranda but practically jumps off the screen. I could have been satisfied. I wasn't.

[Caihn]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I spent three hours talking to an old professor of mine about this and we came to the same conclusion. Her role was reduced (he plays games too) but not destroyed.

Agreed.

A better role could have been done with more content (by adding everything missing), changing the existing content is useless and doesn't resolve the real problem.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't believe that. She has very little screen time. You can't give justification to satisfy everyone within those constraints. She has what? Maybe seven or eight minutes of content?

You can't give justification in that amount of time. You can't justify thirty hours in less than ten minutes.

Furthermore there are line constraints. They have to further the plot within the recording session time.

They could not possibly satisfy everyone in this thread in ten minutes.

I don't think you're really painting an accurate picture there.

For one thing, it's not really "thirty hours" compared to "ten minutes" or anywhere close to that. Sure, in ME2 you could drag Miranda everywhere, and in ME3 you can't. But in terms of meaningful content, actual dialogues and such, the difference is extremely significant, but not that extreme.

As far as lines, she has the most of the ME2 cast. Yet if you compare what was done with it, it pretty much pales in comparison to, for example, Jack's relatively small amount of content.

Beyond that, a lot of the content she has is basically filler. We've been through this before in some detail, but the line budget isn't being pushed to the limit at all. Many of her lines don't mean anything really, and could have been used to discuss many important things.

More content is desirable and would have been better to have in the first place. But more could and should have been done with what is there also.

Modifié par flemm, 30 août 2012 - 05:26 .

[Caihn]

flemm wrote...

More content is desirable and would have been better to have in the first place. But more could and should have been done with what is there also.

I don't agree.
I like the few existing content, I don't want to sacrifice it to have what is missing. I just want more.

Modifié par Yannkee, 30 août 2012 - 05:30 .

[flemm]

Yannkee wrote...

I don't agree.
I like the few existing content I don't want to reduce it to have what is missing. I just want more.

I didn't say anthing about reducing it, or sacrificing stuff. What I said was: more could have been done with what is there. That is a different point entirely.

Obviously, I also want more.

Modifié par flemm, 30 août 2012 - 05:31 .

[krukow]

flemm wrote...I don't think you're really painting an accurate picture there.

For one thing, it's not really "thirty hours" compared to "ten minutes" or anywhere close to that. Sure, in ME2 you could drag Miranda everywhere, and in ME3 you can't. But in terms of meaningful content, actual dialogues and such, the difference is extremely significant, but not that extreme.

As far as lines, she has the most of the ME2 cast. Yet if you compare what was done with it, it pretty much pales in comparison to, for example, Jack's relatively small amount of content.

Beyond that, a lot of the content she has is basically filler. We've been through this before in some detail, but the line budget isn't being pushed to the limit at all. Many of her lines don't mean anything really, and could have been used to discuss many important things.

More content is desirable and would have been better to have in the first place. But more could and should have been done with what is there also.

I don't know if I agree with the bolded.  I think the fact that I can drag Ashley everywhere we me post-coup makes a difference.  It makes her feel like a part of the game, even though her content isn't really much more than Miranda pre-Cronos.  Miranda's content is pretty decent, but because it's just spread throughout the game, cut with her absolute absense/unimportance, she doesn't feel like a part of it.

I know that's not the exact point you were making, but I really think her being a sub-plot, instead of a squadmate, is the biggest problem.  If her content was the same, but she joined as a squaddie at some point, I think her role would be viewed as being at least 100% better.

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

Of course they could have. Because they did repeatedly with characters like Jack, Mordin, and Legion. Jack has a good bit less than Miranda but practically jumps off the screen. I could have been satisfied. I wasn't.

Mordin and Legion had far more than 10 minutes. And they had good sendoffs, even if I still don't really understand Legions' death.

And I wasn't satisfied with Jack's content either. And she did get more. An entire mission devoted to her.
Nor was I really satisfied with Jacob, Samara, Zaeed, or Kasumi, though I'm not going to **** about the last two. Thane's death was cool, I just wish they didn't take him out like a chump.

These were the central characters of ME2. They each deserve far more than they got. They really should have stuck to the character oriented plots for 3. Yeah we have a war to fight. But give me more to fight for, and don't have just me be the one fighting.

[flemm]

krukow wrote...

I don't know if I agree with the bolded.  I think the fact that I can drag Ashley everywhere we me post-coup makes a difference.  It makes her feel like a part of the game, even though her content isn't really much more than Miranda pre-Cronos.  Miranda's content is pretty decent, but because it's just spread throughout the game, cut with her absolute absense/unimportance, she doesn't feel like a part of it.

I know that's not the exact point you were making, but I really think her being a sub-plot, instead of a squadmate, is the biggest problem.  If her content was the same, but she joined as a squaddie at some point, I think her role would be viewed as being at least 100% better.

I think that's true. However, the ten minutes to thirty hours comparison is stretching it. That's all I was saying.

[S.A.K]

Oh my gawd

[fiendishchicken]

Yannkee wrote...

flemm wrote...

More content is desirable and would have been better to have in the first place. But more could and should have been done with what is there also.

I don't agree.
I like the few existing content, I don't want to sacrifice it to have what is missing. I just want more.

The conversation where you talk to her at the Spectre Office is terrible. And there was no confrontation with her father.
The Romance content was ok (would have preferred a more intimate moment with pillow talk and a passionate kiss; Here's to hoping they add that)

[Caihn]

flemm wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

I don't agree.
I like the few existing content I don't want to reduce it to have what is missing. I just want more.

I didn't say anthing about reducing it. What I said was: more could have been done with what is there. That is a different point entirely.

Obviously, I also want more.

Explain me how do you want to add something different with the same amount of content, without removing some parts of the existing content ?

[hot_heart]

Yannkee wrote...
Explain me how do you want to add something different with the same amount of content, without removing some parts of the existing content ?

I would simply alter the focus a little. Put Cerberus before Oriana.

[flemm]

Yannkee wrote...

Explain me how do you want to add something different with the same amount of content, without removing some parts of the existing content ?

Just to take an example, in the first dialogue, we already know that Miranda is on the Citadel looking for contacts, yet there is an investigate option that amounts to Shepard saying: "I'm not sure this is a good place to look for Cerberus contacts" and Miranda saying "I'll find some anyway, thanks."

That's not a good use of the line budget. It adds nothing of substance. Instead we could be hearing about something important.

Modifié par flemm, 30 août 2012 - 05:40 .

[Caihn]

hot_heart wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
Explain me how do you want to add something different with the same amount of content, without removing some parts of the existing content ?

I would simply alter the focus a little. Put Cerberus before Oriana.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want less of Oriana to have more of Cerberus. I just want more of Cerberus (and everything else missing).

[flemm]

Yannkee wrote...
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want less of Oriana to have more of Cerberus. I just want more of Cerberus (and everything else missing).

Ok, well let's look at it this way: What did you learn about Orianna by playing this game? She was the focus, what do we know about her now that we didn't already know from ME2?

Modifié par flemm, 30 août 2012 - 05:43 .

[krukow]

flemm wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want less of Oriana to have more of Cerberus. I just want more of Cerberus (and everything else missing).

Ok, well let's look at it this way: What did you learn about Orianna by playing this game? She was the focus, what do we know about her now that we didn't already know from ME2?

She's 16?

[Taboo]

That's not quite what I'm saying. There are so many different interpretations of this character it would be impossible to satisfy everyone. There are two separate sides in this thread and I know you know that. Neither side is satisfied with the role, but only one is actively furious about it.

Depending on which side of Miranda you respond to you're going to have very different reactions to this content. I of course see filler material, but I also see material I've been expecting for two years. None of the content about wanting in on society shocks me. I've been waiting for this. Some Weird Sin.

Sometimes I wonder if people in this thread are angrier that the character didn't turn out the way they thought it should have. Miranda isn't talking about things they want her to talk about or she isn't behaving in the manner they want her to behave in. What is or is not important varies from person to person. I think she's unbalanced, but her role doesn't offend me. Adding a role for her DLC will not fix the parts that offend people now.

The Miranda that wants a family is here to stay. The Miranda that wants to be accepted and loved is here to stay. If people can't accept that now, they never will.

[hot_heart]

I don't see it as less of Oriana. Just presenting Miranda's priorities in a manner representative of how most fans see the character. Really, I think adjusting the dialogue could have achieved this.

Of course, we all want more. Just ruminating on (or lamenting over) what could have been done.

Modifié par hot_heart, 30 août 2012 - 05:45 .

[Caihn]

flemm wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want less of Oriana to have more of Cerberus. I just want more of Cerberus (and everything else missing).

Ok, well let's look at it this way: What did you learn about Orianna by playing this game? She was the focus, what do we know about her now that we didn't already know from ME2?

I didn't say that this was the most important and interesting thing about her. But it's part of her character, and I don't want to sacrifice it to add something else.

Modifié par Yannkee, 30 août 2012 - 05:46 .

[flemm]

Yannkee wrote...

I didn't say that this was the most important and interesting thing about her. But it's part of her character, and I don't want to sacrifice to add something else.

I agree with that. But Orianna is not going to be sacrificed. That's not a danger.

I just mean that, when people talk about doing more with what is there, they mean stuff like: well, the whole point was a confrontation with Henry, why doesn't Miranda have lines at that point? If Orianna is a big part of the content, shouldn't we learn something new about her from that? Miranda's father is running a Cerberus base now, can't we find a few lines to hear Miranda talk about what that means to her?

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

flemm wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want less of Oriana to have more of Cerberus. I just want more of Cerberus (and everything else missing).

Ok, well let's look at it this way: What did you learn about Orianna by playing this game? She was the focus, what do we know about her now that we didn't already know from ME2?

She's 16?

Yeah and it's established in ME2 that she is 18, going on 19.

She should be 19, possibly 20 as of ME3.

But the way she's treated is as though she is only 15 or 16.

That would have to retcon Miranda's age and DoB then.

She would have to be 31 or 32 as of ME3.