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[Stalker]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I’m all for Miranda having kids, but she cannot—nobody can, male, female, otherwise—play in the big leagues and be a good parent at the same time.

That's why I was insistent on having them wait. 

Shepard and Miranda would not settle down. They would go crazy. There's far more important things going on.

... reminds me of a Chuck season 

And I agree: After saving the galaxy for several years now you can't just immediately sit down and do nothing.
Kids are something that I can see 5-10 years after the Reaper war.

But they'll have a baby, and raise an army of skilled knife users... or something

I'm more a fan than I thought... I even recognize that reference 


Edit top:

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 30 août 2012 - 08:29 .

[Ieldra]

@krukow:
What was done at the base is of no moral significance to whether or not you should keep it. These things are already done, you have no responsibility for them and thus they are morally irrelevant for your decision. To say otherwise is to argue from sentimentality. The real ethical problem is what TIM might do with it if he gets his hands on it. Had Miranda argued from that direction I would've had no reason to complain.

I expect Miranda to have a rational morality because she never showed any sentimentality in her professional capacity before. That's all.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 août 2012 - 08:30 .

[Ghost]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@krukow:
What was done at the base is of no moral significance to whether or not you should keep it. These things are already done, you have no responsibility for them and thus they are morally irrelevant for your decision. To say otherwise it to argue from sentimentality. The real ethical problem is what TIM might do with it if he gets his hands on it.

I expect Miranda to have a rational morality. That's all.

QFMT.

[lillitheris]

Yes, Miranda is sentimental.

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@krukow:
What was done at the base is of no moral significance to whether or not you should keep it. These things are already done, you have no responsibility for them and thus they are morally irrelevant for your decision. To say otherwise it to argue from sentimentality. The real ethical problem is what TIM might do with it if he gets his hands on it.

I expect Miranda to have a rational morality. That's all.

What was done totally matters!  It totally matters!  The death of hundreds or thousands is NEVER MORALLY IRRELEVANT.  YOU ONLY SAY THAT BECAUSE IT'S A VIDEO GAME.

You know, if a troll came in here and started calling Miranda synthetic, and not a real person, you all would get emotioinally hurt and start reporting him.  Yet, that's exactly what you all want from Miranda:
A synthetic person with no real human soul.

She's not allowed to want a family.
She's not allowed to see the evil of the collector base.
She spends too much time worrying about her sister.

You people, page after page, demand a completely synthetic Miranda.  I think, if given control, you would do far more damage to her character than any dossier ever could.

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@krukow:
What was done at the base is of no moral significance to whether or not you should keep it. These things are already done, you have no responsibility for them and thus they are morally irrelevant for your decision. To say otherwise it to argue from sentimentality. The real ethical problem is what TIM might do with it if he gets his hands on it. Had Miranda argued from that direction I would've had no reason to complain.

I expect Miranda to have a rational morality because she never showed any sentimentality in her professional capacity before. That's all.

I'd agree with you that it could have been dealt with better.

[jtav]

The problem with the "betrayal" line is that I don't believe Miranda would see using the technology per se as any kind of betrayal. What TIM likely plans to do with it, yes. But not simply using it. flemm has rationalized it, but I don't find the reasoning persuasive.

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

Yes, Miranda is sentimental.

THANK YOU.

[jtav]

krukow, do you keep the genophage data? Because it's the same situation and Mordin unequivocally rejects that line of thought.

And Miranda is brutally unsentimental on the job, to the point that she's a but horrifying. If she'd gotten her way, the crew would be dead.

Modifié par jtav, 30 août 2012 - 08:35 .

[krukow]

jtav wrote...

krukow, do you keep the genophage data? Because it's the same situation and Mordin unequivocally rejects that line of thought.

I do as a meta-gamer (now knowing the options is allows), but no, I never did before.  I always destroyed it unless I was playing as a renegade.

And even those experiments were on a lesser scale...

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

krukow, do you keep the genophage data? Because it's the same situation and Mordin unequivocally rejects that line of thought.

And Miranda is brutally unsentimental on the job, to the point that she's a but horrifying. If she'd gotten her way, the crew would be dead.

That's one possibility. To get to that point you have to really suck. Please note that.

She's being honest, just like a soldier would be.

You aren't ready.

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

The problem with the "betrayal" line is that I don't believe Miranda would see using the technology per se as any kind of betrayal. What TIM likely plans to do with it, yes. But not simply using it. flemm has rationalized it, but I don't find the reasoning persuasive.

Something along the lines of not trusting TIM with it would have made much more sense.

[Ghost]

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@krukow:
What was done at the base is of no moral significance to whether or not you should keep it. These things are already done, you have no responsibility for them and thus they are morally irrelevant for your decision. To say otherwise it to argue from sentimentality. The real ethical problem is what TIM might do with it if he gets his hands on it.

I expect Miranda to have a rational morality. That's all.

What was done totally matters!  It totally matters!  The death of hundreds or thousands is NEVER MORALLY IRRELEVANT.  YOU ONLY SAY THAT BECAUSE IT'S A VIDEO GAME.

You know, if a troll came in here and started calling Miranda synthetic, and not a real person, you all would get emotioinally hurt and start reporting him.  Yet, that's exactly what you all want from Miranda:
A synthetic person with no real human soul.

She's not allowed to want a family.
She's not allowed to see the evil of the collector base.
She spends too much time worrying about her sister.

You people, page after page, demand a completely synthetic Miranda.  I think, if given control, you would do far more damage to her character than any dossier ever could.

Miranda is synthetic?

[krukow]

Ghost1017 wrote...
Miranda is synthetic?

I literally think some mirimancers would be happier if she was.  No icky feelings or emotions that way.

[Ghost]

krukow wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...
Miranda is synthetic?

I literally think some mirimancers would be happier if she was.  No icky feelings or emotions that way.

What if....choosing destroy kills Miranda?

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@krukow:
What was done at the base is of no moral significance to whether or not you should keep it. These things are already done, you have no responsibility for them and thus they are morally irrelevant for your decision. To say otherwise it to argue from sentimentality. The real ethical problem is what TIM might do with it if he gets his hands on it.

I expect Miranda to have a rational morality. That's all.

What was done totally matters!  It totally matters!  The death of hundreds or thousands is NEVER MORALLY IRRELEVANT.  YOU ONLY SAY THAT BECAUSE IT'S A VIDEO GAME.

Please read again. I am saying it is irrelevant for the morality of the decision about keeping it as such, not that it unconditionally doesn't matter. 

It's like the historical parallel: should you use scientific results gained from experiments at concentration camps, if something undeniably good can come from it? If you use those results, you still have no responsibility for anything that happened there. How you use these results, what you do in the present and the consequences in the future, that matters. The past is the past and can't be changed, there's no reason not to do good with these things now. In other words, evil is not contagious!

I think Miranda would make her decision dependent on how she expects the base to be used, because rationally, that's all she may have some responsibility for, and not on what was done in the past. She may feel differently, but I'm totally convinced she would override those feelings because the decision is too important to be made on sentimentality.

Edit:
As usual, jtav has said it more succintly that I did. The genophage parallel is very fitting. I think Miranda would be like Mordin.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 août 2012 - 08:44 .

[lillitheris]

jtav wrote...

krukow, do you keep the genophage data? Because it's the same situation and Mordin unequivocally rejects that line of thought.

It’s not the same situation. There are similarities, but also significant differences.

…Most importantly, it’s not Miranda’s decision.

[Taboo]

Ghost1017 wrote...

Miranda is synthetic?

Synthetic was the wrong word. Robot would be a more accurate description. Some people want an emotionally sterile being here for whatever reason.

I don't see why people are so butthurt about her having sentimentality and emotions. That's always been there. Always.

Look at her face. She emotes ALL the time.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 30 août 2012 - 08:44 .

[Ghost]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...

Miranda is synthetic?

Synthetic was the wrong word. Robot would be a more accurate description. Some people want an emotionally sterile being here for whatever reason.

I don't see why people are so butthurt about her having sentimentality and emotions. That's always been there. Always.

And it's discarded as being OOC when it doesn't suit their ideals. You don't get to do that.

If Miranda is a robot so is Grunt.

[Taboo]

Did we really need to bring concentration camps into this?

SUDDENLY...GODWIN.

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@krukow:
What was done at the base is of no moral significance to whether or not you should keep it. These things are already done, you have no responsibility for them and thus they are morally irrelevant for your decision. To say otherwise it to argue from sentimentality. The real ethical problem is what TIM might do with it if he gets his hands on it.

I expect Miranda to have a rational morality. That's all.

What was done totally matters!  It totally matters!  The death of hundreds or thousands is NEVER MORALLY IRRELEVANT.  YOU ONLY SAY THAT BECAUSE IT'S A VIDEO GAME.

Please read again. I am saying it is irrelevant for the morality of the decision about keeping it as such, not that it unconditionally doesn't matter. 

And I am saying you are wrong.

WRONG.

How something was achieved matters.  If someone pays me for something with stolen money, do I keep the money?  And that's a weak moral reason.

Hundres to thousands of human beings were murdered in that base.  What has occured there makes it wrong to keep it or use it.  The ends do not justify the means.

And the only reason you can argue othewise, is because the people killed are just bits of 1's and 0's.  If you were Miranda, if you had to walk through it, see your fellow man be liquified, you would not feel that way.  It's not f*cking possible.

Unless she's synthetic.

Edit: Also, this isn't keeping data, it's keeping Auschwitz.  The actual camp.  And the ovens.  WRONG.

Modifié par krukow, 30 août 2012 - 08:48 .

[wright1978]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...

Miranda is synthetic?

Synthetic was the wrong word. Robot would be a more accurate description. Some people want an emotionally sterile being here for whatever reason.

I don't see why people are so butthurt about her having sentimentality and emotions. That's always been there. Always.

Look at her face. She emotes ALL the time.

Nope what people want is a balanced portrayal. I have no problem with her wanting a family or caring for Oriana. Her rational tough operative side is equally as important.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
I don't see why people are so butthurt about her having sentimentality and emotions. That's always been there. Always.

Emotions are fine. Sentimentality is being overly emotional or when emotions unduly interfere with things. As I said, I have no problem with Miranda feeling that way. I have a problem with her emotions overriding her professionalism in a situation that may decide the future of humanity.

*If* she recommends not keeping the base, it should be for rational reasons.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 août 2012 - 08:49 .

[jtav]

Taboo-XX wrote...

jtav wrote...

krukow, do you keep the genophage data? Because it's the same situation and Mordin unequivocally rejects that line of thought.

And Miranda is brutally unsentimental on the job, to the point that she's a but horrifying. If she'd gotten her way, the crew would be dead.

That's one possibility. To get to that point you have to really suck. Please note that.

She's being honest, just like a soldier would be.

You aren't ready.

"We can't afford to send anyone back"

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The dossier doesn't exactly prove anything, but it is thematically significant. That's why we complain about it. Or don't you recognize the thematic significance in the combination of subscribing to a fashion magazine and canceling a subscription to a scientific journal at the same time? The first part alone would have been OK, but the combination is damning.

One thing following another does not necessarily a combination make.

The only link I find likely is one of timing. They may have occured together but it may be nothing more than a case of "since I'm already here...."

Bonus Observation: Entries in that section are alphabetically listed. There's your connection.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 30 août 2012 - 08:53 .