82210 réponses à ce sujet

[LanceSolous13]

krukow wrote...
I just bolded everything you assume about Miranda but cannot substantiate from the game.

And I love how you assume every possible limit to Ashley's skills.

HEAD CANON!  HEAD CANON FOR EVERYONE!  YOU SIR, OVER THERE, HAVE SOME HEAD CANON!

(head canon confetti falls everywhere over everyone).

Reminds me of the Batarian Speaker on Omega.

[Steelcan]

Krukow calm down, if the person arguing is just commuting fallacy after fallacy, ignore them

[Spitfire017]

I've come a conclusion...I really miss Miranda. Was there anyway remote mention of her in Leviathan? I haven't played it yet...but my guess is no??

[dtrain24]

Ho guys. I have an idea on how to settle this. Why doesn't someone just make a poll on who would win in a fight between Miranda and Ashley? Let's let BSN decide.

[krukow]

dtrain24 wrote...

Ho guys. I have an idea on how to settle this. Why doesn't someone just make a poll on who would win in a fight between Miranda and Ashley? Let's let BSN decide.

Because Garrus would win, duh!

[Spitfire017]

@dtrain24: PLEASE NO!!!!

A poll to accurately determine who would win in fight is impossible, since BSN members are to biased...Ash haters would immediately vote Miri without giving it a second thought. Same with Miranda.

Just please no!!

[Ghost]

Spitfire017 wrote...

@dtrain24: PLEASE NO!!!!

A poll to accurately determine who would win in fight is impossible, since BSN members are to biased...Ash haters would immediately vote Miri without giving it a second thought. Same with Miranda.

Just please no!!

This is true.

[Steelcan]

I'm making the poll

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

1.  Ashley is a spectre because 4 council members agreed to make her one, not just Udina.  Also, after he's revealed and killed, they do not revoke her status (something they've been happy to do for political reasons in the past).  As for her not feeling deserving, that's a recurring character trait.  Her undervaluing herself.  It's consistent from ME1 (when she didn't think she deserved to be on the Normandy.  Shut up, she did!)

They agreed only because she helped in the events of the first game. I don't know if they would revoke her status or not, but there was a war going, remember? That certainly wasn't on their list of priorities.

2.  The game disagrees with you about soverign.  "You spoke to one, then blew the damn thing up."  I know mirimancers are happy to headcanon whatever they want, but I usually restrict my headcanon to filling out what isn't shown.  If the game says Shepard killed Soverign, he did.  And Ashley was right there with him.

Again, not even Shepard fires a bullet at Sovereign. If she were with Shep's squad, she was dealing with Saren, if she were inside the Normandy, Joker was doing everything. They were responsible for its death because they rallied the fleets to the Citadel. There's no headcanoing this, Shepard, Ashley, Liara, none of them shoot Sovereign.

3.  You people want to condemn Ashley for shooting Wrex in the back, but then talk about how Miranda would win with stealth and strategy.  Pick one.  Miranda would be shooting from behind plenty if she did win.

Well, you love talking how lame Kai Leng is, he went head to head with a krogan and stab the krogan to death, can you imagine Ashley accomplishing something like that? As for Miranda and Ash fighting, Miri is not an infiltrator, she wouldn't use stealth, and even if she did, Ashley would use everything she was good at her disposal, Miranda should do the same.

4.  Yes it does.  This is a conversation from the first game.  Shep is suprised/astonished that Ashley hasn't advanced further, and the reason turns out to be her family name.  The game says point blank that Ashley should have advanced farther, but her name held her back.

Maybe you are right about that, but again, she didn't have any special training.

5.  Ashely is better than Miranda with weapons.  She's better hand to hand.  And biotics are not that big of a deal (my shepard soldier rolls through asari commandos like paper).  Miranda has not trained like Ashely.  Remember when Miranda spent 2 years running a science project (lazarus)?  Ashley was a soldier that whold time, training and drilling.  Also, Ashley has spectre training.

She's better with weapons, I never denied that, but the fact that Eva Core tored Ash apart so easily proves that she's not as tough or as good in hand to hand as you think. I hate Kai Leng as much as you do, but the guy is the best assassin Cerberus has and Miranda survived the encounter, she did a lot better than Ash did against Core.

About the training, again Ash didn't have any special training, she was a simple soldier and nothing more. Gifted? Yes. But not that remarkable. We don't know what kind of training Miranda had with Cerberus, but it had to be pretty intense and complete.

6.  She ran away from her father, she didn't fight her way out guns blazing.  And Cerberus totally trained her, but not just in soldiering.  In the sciences.  In espionage.  In so many various fields.  She's a jack of all trades.  She's great.  But she's not the fighter Ashley is, not even close.   One on one, she wouldn't stand a chance.

Running from her father certainly wasn't easy. One on one with weapons, Ash would win  hands down unless Miranda found a way to out smart her, without weapons Miranda is just more complete than Ash having tech and biotics at her disposal. Without using powers and weapons, Ashley really is the toughest of them, but I don't know if she's that good at hand-to-hand like you said, if anything Miranda proved to be better at that if we compared their preformances against Eva Core and Kai Leng. But to be honest, we don't know much about their abilities on hand to hand, so I'll just say that on close quarter combat, Jill Valentine would kick both their asses.

There, your points refuted.

Also, sometimes I wonder if you all even understand your waifu.  When I said Ash would win one on one, why didn't any one of you reply "So?  Why would Miranda fight Ash one on one?  That's stupid.  She'd sabotage her (flying car, don't know the name)'s brakes 2 weeks before a fight happened."

Yet nobody did.  You all tried to turn her into Batman/Rambo/Bourne.  Batramourn Lawson.


interesting...

I agree there, no reason for them to fight now that Miranda is no longer with Cerberus. In fact, if they weren't romanced by Shepard, they could even come to an understanding and mutual respect. Don't think they would ever be friends with Ash being loyal to the Alliance and given Miranda's past with Cerberus, but who knows?

So I'll come to the conclusion that we don't have enough data to establish who would truly win since they never showed either of them fighting.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 03:00 .

[Babi_Siha]

Steelcan wrote...

Krukow calm down, if the person arguing is just commuting fallacy after fallacy, ignore them

He is calmed, this isn't any different from other situations we've been through before. Again, no one is fighting here.

Spitfire017 wrote...

I've come a conclusion...I really miss Miranda. Was there anyway remote
mention of her in Leviathan? I haven't played it yet...but my guess is
no??

No mention of her at all.

**** off.

Chill, who are you to say who can make a poll or not? Just don't vote, no one will take the results serious anyway.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 02:59 .

[Spitfire017]

Steelcan wrote...

I'm making the poll

**** off.

Modifié par Spitfire017, 31 août 2012 - 02:58 .

[krukow]

Babi, I wasn't say we don't know who would win. Ashley would win.

I think it's curious you all care that Miranda would lose a one-on-one fight. Since when is that her character? It's like some weird competitive thing where you all need Miranda to be as good as everyone else in everything.

I mean, if someone in the Ash thread said "I bet Miranda would make a better XO of the Normandy" I'd respond "Yup, probably." Because that's never really been Ashley's character anyways. I know she's not a brilliant space tactician.

I just thought it was weird you all needed her to be Ash's equal in this is all...

[Steelcan]

Spitfire017 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'm making the poll

**** off.

. Little less anger

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

Ashley is a Spectre because, as it was said before, she was there and Udina needed someone to watch his back during the coup, she herself is skeptical on why Udina chose her. The truth is, before meeting Shepard, she was nothing exceptional, she was a great soldier, but she never had special training, wasn't an N7 graduate, even brainless Vega was called to the program.

She didn't kill Sovereigh, she didn't even help, in fact no one from ME1 directly fought the Reaper, the 5th Fleet and other dreadnoughts, at tops she helped kill Saren. So Miranda, unlike Ash, actually did fight a Reaper. As for Wrex, anyone can kill a krogan warlord shooting him on the back, which was an incredbly coward attitude by the way.

Ashley only made something out of herself because she hitchhiked Shepard's accomplishments. Even if your argument is that her family was blacklisted, if she were that good of a soldier that wouldn't matter.

Ashley maybe tougher than Miranda, the latter is rather squishy actually, and is the better sniper, but on combat Miranda would play smart and would come out superior. On hand-to-hand combat, Ashley could win if Miranda didn't use her biotics, after all Ash is a tank, but using her biotics would give her quite the edge.

And Miranda was forced to be tough way before Ash joined the Alliance, she had to escape the bunch of armed security guards of her father, she couldn't do that unless her father had given her some kind of training, and Cerberus likely gave her an even more extensive field training as well.

I still like you though, krukow xD

Edit: I realized now I'm super late on the conversation, apologizes for that, I don't even know if the argument was finished or not.

1.  Ashley is a spectre because 4 council members agreed to make her one, not just Udina.  Also, after he's revealed and killed, they do not revoke her status (something they've been happy to do for political reasons in the past).  As for her not feeling deserving, that's a recurring character trait.  Her undervaluing herself.  It's consistent from ME1 (when she didn't think she deserved to be on the Normandy.  Shut up, she did!)

2.  The game disagrees with you about soverign.  "You spoke to one, then blew the damn thing up."  I know mirimancers are happy to headcanon whatever they want, but I usually restrict my headcanon to filling out what isn't shown.  If the game says Shepard killed Soverign, he did.  And Ashley was right there with him.

3.  You people want to condemn Ashley for shooting Wrex in the back, but then talk about how Miranda would win with stealth and strategy.  Pick one.  Miranda would be shooting from behind plenty if she did win.

4.  Yes it does.  This is a conversation from the first game.  Shep is suprised/astonished that Ashley hasn't advanced further, and the reason turns out to be her family name.  The game says point blank that Ashley should have advanced farther, but her name held her back.

5.  Ashely is better than Miranda with weapons.  She's better hand to hand.  And biotics are not that big of a deal (my shepard soldier rolls through asari commandos like paper).  Miranda has not trained like Ashely.  Remember when Miranda spent 2 years running a science project (lazarus)?  Ashley was a soldier that whold time, training and drilling.  Also, Ashley has spectre training.

6.  She ran away from her father, she didn't fight her way out guns blazing.  And Cerberus totally trained her, but not just in soldiering.  In the sciences.  In espionage.  In so many various fields.  She's a jack of all trades.  She's great.  But she's not the fighter Ashley is, not even close.   One on one, she wouldn't stand a chance.

There, your points refuted.

Also, sometimes I wonder if you all even understand your waifu.  When I said Ash would win one on one, why didn't any one of you reply "So?  Why would Miranda fight Ash one on one?  That's stupid.  She'd sabotage her (flying car, don't know the name)'s brakes 2 weeks before a fight happened."

Yet nobody did.  You all tried to turn her into Batman/Rambo/Bourne.  Batramourn Lawson.


interesting...

1. She's left because frankly, the council doesn't care. They have more important issues to work out.

2. Again, you were fighting Saren, being controlled by Sovereign. It was a physical avatar yes. But not Sovereign itself. And if you note in ME1, Sovereign is clearly destroyed by a fleet of ships.

3. But Wrex isn't actively engaging Ashley in a fight. Shepard is the target. Meanwhile Miranda and Ashley are in a fight. 

4. That depends on how you play the game. I also remember a choice to tell her that her grandfather was a coward.

5. She is better with weapons. But Miranda would win with handguns (100 yards is very good for a person with a handgun.) I doubt so in hand to hand. Miranda has more extensive training covering those bases. She is an operative after all. They are usually much better trained. And as a soldier, if she has to fight hand to hand, she's already lost an advantage. She's physically much stronger, but I don't think she could move as fast as Miranda. Miranda also fights smarter, not harder. And for gameplay purposes that example does not count. Training and Drilling keeps you on your toes, but I believe Ashley was on assignment. And back to Miranda's operative training, she's going to be learning a lot more and remembering it better. And I don't think she has spectre training. Besides, that doesn't make one in an incredible fighter. Thane didn't have Spectre training. Neither did Samara.
Look at Jondam Bau. He was a spectre and he nearly got strangled by a human thug. You discount biotics, yet somehow believe holding a spectre card makes you invincible.

6. She was a teenage girl with an infant, fighting a man who probably had his own private army, and a terrorized fear of the man. A man who had tormented her mentally, emotionally, and psychologically her entire life up to that point. And Cerberus did indeed train her. As I'm sure her father forced her to be as well. And being who she is, she excelled at EVERY level of training. She probably only recieved cursory familiarizations training with AR's, SR's, and SG's, but she'd recognize this disadvantage against Williams and make it an advantage. That's what a good fighter does: Takes a weakness, and turns it into a strength. Miranda would be a lot closer to Ashley in a fight than Ashley would care to fight in. 

There, your points are refuted.

Yeah Miranda would do that. It's the most efficient. But in a CQC match, I'd give it to Miranda. You are discounting all her training. She's more than a jack of all trades. She's a savant at everything she's trained in. 

She is Miranda Lawson. Engineered for perfection. While not perfect (she is only human afterall), everything about her is simply made better than Ashley. That's not bashing. She has been genetically tailored to be the peak of all attributes. Her mind is as sharp as can be possibly made, her physical constitution is as healthy and strong as can be, her memory, her speed, everything. She's better because she was made that way.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

Babi, I wasn't say we don't know who would win. Ashley would win.

I think it's curious you all care that Miranda would lose a one-on-one fight. Since when is that her character? It's like some weird competitive thing where you all need Miranda to be as good as everyone else in everything.

I mean, if someone in the Ash thread said "I bet Miranda would make a better XO of the Normandy" I'd respond "Yup, probably." Because that's never really been Ashley's character anyways. I know she's not a brilliant space tactician.

I just thought it was weird you all needed her to be Ash's equal in this is all...

Sorry, fixed my post. But I'll stand to what I said before, Ash is not that good on hand-to-hand as you claim her to be, she was almost killed without even throwing a punch at Eva. If you're calling us biased because we like Miranda, you're doing the same thing with Ashley, except in your case, there's actually in-game moment of her getting her ass kicked, almost beat up to death. That's not the state of a good fighter.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 03:05 .

[Ghost]

Steelcan wrote...

Spitfire017 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'm making the poll

**** off.

. Little less anger

I like melons.

[RamilVenoard]

krukow wrote...

Babi, I wasn't say we don't know who would win. Ashley would win.

I think it's curious you all care that Miranda would lose a one-on-one fight. Since when is that her character? It's like some weird competitive thing where you all need Miranda to be as good as everyone else in everything.

I mean, if someone in the Ash thread said "I bet Miranda would make a better XO of the Normandy" I'd respond "Yup, probably." Because that's never really been Ashley's character anyways. I know she's not a brilliant space tactician.

I just thought it was weird you all needed her to be Ash's equal in this is all...

I've noticed this too. I think it has something to do with the fact that she's treated like absolute **** but the writer's of ME3.

That being said, Miranda received martial arts training when she was very young. Ash is a "straight up puncher." Don't tell me that a black belt martial artist cannot beat or at least out-maneuver a once foot-soldier promoted to gunny chief.

Not because I'm a Miranda fan, but just because I've seen plenty of boxing-versus-[insert martial art here], and every match ends the same.

Modifié par RamilVenoard, 31 août 2012 - 03:06 .

[katcrave]

Hey sometimes its our weaknesses that give us strength. I would have a hard time believing Miranda's character if she could do everything.

But Imma just say that I see them both as having exceptional martial and leadership skills.

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

But the thing is, you're not right.

Ashley is limited to really only one style of fighting.

Miranda has no limits on that. 

I give it to her, even without the biotics. Miranda would outsmart Ashley everytime.

She'd fight a lot more conservatively and has something Ashley doesn't: adaptability. It's more than just being a tactician or organizer. In a hand to hand fight, her background indicates she has a lot of training. I would say her talents are on par with say, Sarah Walker.

Ashley is more of a brute strength fighter. She fights a lot harder. Miranda fights a lot smarter. She's going to be a lot more nimble and agile. She uses her speed to her advantage. If Ashley is anything like a soldier today, she won't have that capability.

I'm pretty sure that on her own, Ashley could never have infiltrated Sanctuary while it was under Reaper attack and then survived a fight with Kai Leng.

*Edit* Read the last page. You're resorting to personal attacks against us now. Your argument has no basis if you haave to insult us now.

I just bolded everything you assume about Miranda but cannot substantiate from the game.

And I love how you assume every possible limit to Ashley's skills.

HEAD CANON!  HEAD CANON FOR EVERYONE!  YOU SIR, OVER THERE, HAVE SOME HEAD CANON!

(head canon confetti falls everywhere over everyone).

You do the same for Ashley. 

Substantiate your claims for Ashley please.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 31 août 2012 - 03:05 .

[Spitfire017]

Babi_Siha wrote...

Chill, who are you to say who can make a poll or not? Just don't vote, no one will take the results serious anyway.

Steelcan wrote...

Spitfire017 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'm making the poll

**** off.

. Little less anger

Sorry. It was a knee jerk reaction. This is the first time in like 2 months I've posted on BSN...discussing Mass Effect (especially when it involves two of my favourite female characters) doesn't bring out the best in me.

Modifié par Spitfire017, 31 août 2012 - 03:09 .

[Steelcan]

Ghost1017 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Spitfire017 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'm making the poll

**** off.

. Little less anger

I like melons.

Me too

[fiendishchicken]

RamilVenoard wrote...

krukow wrote...

Babi, I wasn't say we don't know who would win. Ashley would win.

I think it's curious you all care that Miranda would lose a one-on-one fight. Since when is that her character? It's like some weird competitive thing where you all need Miranda to be as good as everyone else in everything.

I mean, if someone in the Ash thread said "I bet Miranda would make a better XO of the Normandy" I'd respond "Yup, probably." Because that's never really been Ashley's character anyways. I know she's not a brilliant space tactician.

I just thought it was weird you all needed her to be Ash's equal in this is all...

I've noticed this too. I think it has something to do with the fact that she's treated like absolute **** but the writer's of ME3.

That being said, Miranda received martial arts training when she was very young. Ash is a "straight up puncher." Don't tell me that a black belt martial artist cannot beat or at least out-maneuver a once foot-soldier promoted to gunny chief.

Not because I'm a Miranda fan, but just because I've seen plenty of boxing-versus-[insert martial art here], and every match ends the same.

This

[krukow]

katcrave wrote...

Hey sometimes its our weaknesses that give us strength. I would have a hard time believing Miranda's character if she could do everything.

But Imma just say that I see them both as having exceptional martial and leadership skills.

Oh, I think Miranda's leadership skills are better.

I said earlier Ash wins one-on-one, but Miranda wins five-on-five just as easily.  She's a brilliant tactician, not batman.

I mean, have you ever even seen her punch someone?

[Steelcan]

krukow wrote...

katcrave wrote...

Hey sometimes its our weaknesses that give us strength. I would have a hard time believing Miranda's character if she could do everything.

But Imma just say that I see them both as having exceptional martial and leadership skills.

Oh, I think Miranda's leadership skills are better.

I said earlier Ash wins one-on-one, but Miranda wins five-on-five just as easily.  She's a brilliant tactician, not batman.

I mean, have you ever even seen her punch someone?

. Well she does fight Kai Leng and survive, she also survives attempts on her life by Cerberus assassins

Modifié par Steelcan, 31 août 2012 - 03:10 .

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

katcrave wrote...

Hey sometimes its our weaknesses that give us strength. I would have a hard time believing Miranda's character if she could do everything.

But Imma just say that I see them both as having exceptional martial and leadership skills.

Oh, I think Miranda's leadership skills are better.

I said earlier Ash wins one-on-one, but Miranda wins five-on-five just as easily.  She's a brilliant tactician, not batman.

I mean, have you ever even seen her punch someone?

No, but then again, we never seen Ash punch someone as well, an unlike Miranda, we saw her engaged in a fistfight... and being completely humiliated, it wasn't a fight, it was a drive-by.