82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Well as fun as this was, I'm out. Later

[katcrave]

krukow wrote...

katcrave wrote...

Hey sometimes its our weaknesses that give us strength. I would have a hard time believing Miranda's character if she could do everything.

But Imma just say that I see them both as having exceptional martial and leadership skills.

Oh, I think Miranda's leadership skills are better.

I said earlier Ash wins one-on-one, but Miranda wins five-on-five just as easily.  She's a brilliant tactician, not batman.

I mean, have you ever even seen her punch someone?

Oh I agree. Miranda's the better leader. But I could still see Ash coordinating a fight squad well. And Ash probably is more focused on tearing down an opponent with combat skills. But I perceive Miranda as holding her own against most others.

We're talking about two very talented and driven characters here. Against each other, their weaknesses are exposed. Compared to the average citizen though, they'd kick ass regardless of the situation. I guess I was just trying to point out that I see them both as being above the 'norm' in either category. 

Modifié par katcrave, 31 août 2012 - 03:17 .

[dtrain24]

If only Miranda's fight against Kai Leng was shown. Then we'd have some evidence of Miranda's one on one prowess.

[krukow]

fiendishchicken wrote...You do the same for Ashley. 

Substantiate your claims for Ashley please.

Ashley has more battle experience.  She helped Shepard defeat soverign's geth army and the reaper forces.  She was with him all the way up till the beam (when he ordered her to leave for awesome/mooshy plot reasons).
Miranda just helped fight the collectors.
I will exclude Ashley being more effective in combat as I think that's a ME3 v ME2 gameplay mechanic thing (me2 squadmates are useless with a gun).
This is all in-game.

Ashley is better with guns.  This is why she gets heavy weapons and Miranda gets pea shooters.
This is also in-game.

Ashley is given spectre status.  I'll relent that this isn't a be-all, end-all, but spectre's are supposed to be the best at what they do.  I think Jordan (being a salarian) was not made a spectre because he was a physically imposing force.  Regardless, Ashley is such a good soldier, she makes spectre status.
This is in-game.

Ashley kills Wrex.  Granted, it's from behind, but screw him, he was getting upitty.
this is in-game.

Where, in the whole course of the game, are we shown her battle prowess?   We're told, but never shown.  What we're shown is that she's a brilliant organizer and leader.  Her powers make her TEAM better, not so much her.
That is in-game

And nothing personal, but when you're comparing Ash to regular soldiers, and Miranda to Sarah Walker, let's just be honest: your fandom has taken over.  Miranda never mentions fight training, or even throws a punch in game, and you're making her Keanu Reeves from the Matrix.  Just, relax.  She doesn't have to be perfect at everything to be awesome.

[Babi_Siha]

dtrain24 wrote...

If only Miranda's fight against Kai Leng was shown. Then we'd have some evidence of Miranda's one on one prowess.

She survived, that's prowess enough. Even Thane, that's hands down the best close quarters fighter of the entire team, met Kai Leng's sword  and he had a handgun (although I only think he lost because he was ill).

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

And nothing personal, but when you're comparing Ash to regular soldiers, and Miranda to Sarah Walker, let's just be honest: your fandom has taken over.  Miranda never mentions fight training, or even throws a punch in game, and you're making her Keanu Reeves from the Matrix.  Just, relax.  She doesn't have to be perfect at everything to be awesome.

Ashley doesn't do that either, so you're as bias as us. She did however, had the opportunity to do so, and failed miserably.

[krukow]

Babi_Siha wrote...

krukow wrote...

And nothing personal, but when you're comparing Ash to regular soldiers, and Miranda to Sarah Walker, let's just be honest: your fandom has taken over.  Miranda never mentions fight training, or even throws a punch in game, and you're making her Keanu Reeves from the Matrix.  Just, relax.  She doesn't have to be perfect at everything to be awesome.

Ashley doesn't do that either, so you're as bias as us. She did however, had the opportunity to do so, and failed miserably.

I never said she had unlimited fighting styles or compared her to Sarah Walker.  I said she's a better fighter.

And she got beat up by a robot.  It happens.  Miranda got beat up by a ballerina assassin.

And both would have died w/o shep's intervention.

[dtrain24]

Babi_Siha wrote...

dtrain24 wrote...

If only Miranda's fight against Kai Leng was shown. Then we'd have some evidence of Miranda's one on one prowess.

She survived, that's prowess enough. Even Thane, that's hands down the best close quarters fighter of the entire team, met Kai Leng's sword  and he had a handgun (although I only think he lost because he was ill).

Thane in his prime would have beaten Kai Leng to a pulp.

[dtrain24]

krukow wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

krukow wrote...

And nothing personal, but when you're comparing Ash to regular soldiers, and Miranda to Sarah Walker, let's just be honest: your fandom has taken over.  Miranda never mentions fight training, or even throws a punch in game, and you're making her Keanu Reeves from the Matrix.  Just, relax.  She doesn't have to be perfect at everything to be awesome.

Ashley doesn't do that either, so you're as bias as us. She did however, had the opportunity to do so, and failed miserably.

I never said she had unlimited fighting styles or compared her to Sarah Walker.  I said she's a better fighter.

And she got beat up by a robot.  It happens.  Miranda got beat up by a ballerina assassin.

And both would have died w/o shep's intervention.

For all the crap we give Kai Leng, he's still a pretty skilled assassin.
And Miri also had to go through Cerberus and Reaper forces.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

I never said she had unlimited fighting styles or compared her to Sarah Walker.  I said she's a better fighter.

And she got beat up by a robot.  It happens.  Miranda got beat up by a ballerina assassin.

And both would have died w/o shep's intervention.

I agree that being compared to Sarah Walker was unfortunate.Still, Ash got beat up by a robot that Shepard easily took down and robot or not, she really didn't do anything against it, and to discredit that argument even more, geth are robots too and she never had problem dealing with them. And again, you're letting your feelings for Kai Leng cloud your judgement, he's poorly writen and an awful character in ME3, but you're forgetting everything about the books that prove how much of a bad ass assassin he is and the books are canon. Even Thane couldn't take him and if you say Ashley is a better fighter than Thane I'll just call you delusional (though I know no one is irrational enough to say Thane is not the best fighter that ever fought alongside with Shepard).

We can't know who would win, that's the truth. Your only argument about Ashley is that she's a soldier, had training and became a Spectre. So I'll just say, again, that she never had special training, even after the events of the first game she wasn't invited for the N7 program (ouch, Vega was); she never accomplished things on her own to become a Spectre, everything she achieved was because of Shepard, when she was working solo, she got frozen by swarmers and could lose an entire colony if shepard hadn't shown up, even if she did accomplished something, she never had the time to have a proper Spectre training. But she had something in-game that Miranda never had, the opportunity to show her fighting skills and she didn't do too well.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 03:36 .

[krukow]

Ashley would not have charged Kai Leng if she had a gun.

I said it.

Come at me thanemancers!

[krukow]

Babi_Siha wrote...But she had something in-game that Miranda never had, the opportunity to show her fighting skills and she didn't do too well.

Miranda dying on every default playthrough/any time you don't jump through every hoop says otherwise.  Eva Core was also pretty badass until she wasn't (cuz PLOT!).

And let's be honest, both of those beatdowns were more plot driven than character ability driven.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

Ashley would not have charged Kai Leng if she had a gun.

I said it.

Come at me thanemancers!

She wouldn't, because as proven with Eva Core, she doesn't have the skill to do so. And BTW, she did have a gun against Eva Core, that didn't do her much good either. So she failed at being this great shot she's supposed to be and at being a skilled fighter. Hum...

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 03:46 .

[RamilVenoard]

Let me summarize what I said before: martial arts training beats boxing, every damn time. Now I assume Miranda had martial arts training when she was still under her father's wing, because, it simply makes perfect sense that she did.

Let me put it this way: if you where a dictatorial businessman, who had a daughter in an attempt to build and empire, would you not teach her how to kill someone with her bare hands?

[krukow]

Babi_Siha wrote...

krukow wrote...

Ashley would not have charged Kai Leng if she had a gun.

I said it.

Come at me thanemancers!

She wouldn't, because as proven with Eva Core, she doesn't have the skill to do so. And BTW, she did have a gun against Eva Core, that didn't do her much good either. So she failed at being this great shot and at being a skilled fighter. Hum...

And Miranda passed out on the floor and slept when I fought the shadow broker.

or it was THE PLOT!

You pick.  Because falling asleep in the shadow broker base was as bad as anything...

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...But she had something in-game that Miranda never had, the opportunity to show her fighting skills and she didn't do too well.

Miranda dying on every default playthrough/any time you don't jump through every hoop says otherwise.  Eva Core was also pretty badass until she wasn't (cuz PLOT!).

And let's be honest, both of those beatdowns were more plot driven than character ability driven.

Miranda dies in non-import games, yes, but there's no canon in ME, so it really doesn't matter. Also, she dies, but only after a while, she survived Kai Leng long enough to rescue her sister. How long do you think Ashley would've lasted if Shepard didn't bring her to the med-bay and wasn't there to rescue her?

krukow wrote...

And Miranda passed out on the floor and slept when I fought the shadow broker.

or it was THE PLOT!

You pick.  Because falling asleep in the shadow broker base was as bad as anything...

Well, she was thrown pretty hard, if she didn't pass out the synthetics theory might be correct.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 03:45 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Kai Leng is skilled in Martial Arts, correct? Perhaps Miri does as well? It may be one of the ways she fought him. I like to think that. Not just Biotics, Tech, and Weapons, but also Hand-To-Hand Combat.

Like this Drawing right here, which I REALLY Love:

[krukow]

RamilVenoard wrote...

Let me summarize what I said before: martial arts training beats boxing, every damn time. Now I assume Miranda had martial arts training when she was still under her father's wing, because, it simply makes perfect sense that she did.

Let me put it this way: if you where a dictatorial businessman, who had a daughter in an attempt to build and empire, would you not teach her how to kill someone with her bare hands?

Why do you assume Ash just knows boxing?  Again, it's the future, I'm sure they teach them some Jui Jitsu and other things.

Which is what you're doing.  Assuming.  Maybe Henry Lawson thinks fighting in uncivilized and useless...

So at best training is a push, because again, SPECTRE.  We KNOW Ash has been trained.

And hey, Babi, Ash becomes a SPECTRE after Ms. Core, so that beatdown doesn't count because it's pre-training.

Not like Miranda and her mountain of training getting owned by Tiny Dancer...

[Babi_Siha]

RamilVenoard wrote...

Let me summarize what I said before: martial arts training beats boxing, every damn time. Now I assume Miranda had martial arts training when she was still under her father's wing, because, it simply makes perfect sense that she did.

Let me put it this way: if you where a dictatorial businessman, who had a daughter in an attempt to build and empire, would you not teach her how to kill someone with her bare hands?

Well, we can't assume anything, you have no basis to come to this conclusion.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

And hey, Babi, Ash becomes a SPECTRE after Ms. Core, so that beatdown doesn't count because it's pre-training.

Not like Miranda and her mountain of training getting owned by Tiny Dancer...

And when exactly did Ash had the time to go through proper Spectre training? That certainly doesn't take overnight to be completed and she left a hospital bed to help with the coup, after that she either joins Shepard or goes help Hackett. No time at all for the special training she never had.

And Ashley would take a beating from Kai Leng, Thane did, she sure couldn't do better than him. And you can't look at this objectively, Kai Leng is a lame character, yes, but he's also very skilled and fast, not to mention a natural psicopath (actually I don't know how being  psicopath changes anything). If you read the books, you're just trolling, if you didn't, do a research to know just how good of an assassin and dangerous he is. He stabbed a krogan to death, Ash would be to coward to try that and would just shoot the krogan on the back.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 03:53 .

[krukow]

On the job training yo. While she's killing reaper forces with Shep.

Best type of training. Learn by doing.

[Spitfire017]

Babi_Siha wrote...

krukow wrote...

Ashley would not have charged Kai Leng if she had a gun.

I said it.

Come at me thanemancers!

She wouldn't, because as proven with Eva Core, she doesn't have the skill to do so. And BTW, she did have a gun against Eva Core, that didn't do her much good either. So she failed at being this great shot and at being a skilled fighter. Hum...

I'm going to come to Ash's defence the best way I know how....I don't blame characters for bad wriiting. And ME3 is full of it, especially when it comes to certain characters (Ash, Miri,etc.)

If military training is anything like todays in the Alliance, the right COA would have Ash shoot that damn robot...2 in the chest, 1 in the head. She does have the skill since she would have been trained to do just that...no hestitiation, since that means death. Having Eva beat Ash and Kaidan up was just a convenient and rather stupid way of going about it just they can have their whole "let the players shoot Ash and Kaidan" bull**** during the Udina coup. Simple as that.

Ash, if not for bad wiriting, would have destroyed Eva in an instance.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Miri should have a Lightsaber.


Like Yvonne:




Except the Sith Color.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 31 août 2012 - 03:54 .

[Skullheart]

krukow wrote...

Ashley has more battle experience.  She helped Shepard defeat soverign's geth army and the reaper forces.  She was with him all the way up till the beam (when he ordered her to leave for awesome/mooshy plot reasons).
Miranda just helped fight the collectors.

Miranda has more experience than Ashley. She has 20 years of experience, and made her way to be Cerberus top operative. Just make the idea that TIM replaced her with Leng (an ex N7 and the best melee fighter at the N7 Academy).

I will exclude Ashley being more effective in combat as I think that's a ME3 v ME2 gameplay mechanic thing (me2 squadmates are useless with a gun).
This is all in-game.

Good thing you said that. I remember so many times the suqdmates in ME1 shooting me or shooting against a wall.

Ashley is better with guns.  This is why she gets heavy weapons and Miranda gets pea shooters.
This is also in-game.

Miranda also is experienced with other weapons. I remember seeing her with Assault rifles during the suicide mission. That is in-game.

Ashley is given spectre status.  I'll relent that this isn't a be-all, end-all, but spectre's are supposed to be the best at what they do.  I think Jordan (being a salarian) was not made a spectre because he was a physically imposing force.  Regardless, Ashley is such a good soldier, she makes spectre status.
This is in-game.

You should really stop using the spectre status thing. Udina gave it that to her so she could be more easy to manipulate. 

Ashley kills Wrex.  Granted, it's from behind, but screw him, he was getting upitty.
this is in-game.

Shooting someone in the back requires so much skill.

Where, in the whole course of the game, are we shown her battle prowess?   We're told, but never shown.  What we're shown is that she's a brilliant organizer and leader.  Her powers make her TEAM better, not so much her.
That is in-game.

Game mechanics, but we can see her destroying a heavy mech with biotics and weapons in the trailers from ME2.

Miranda never mentions fight training,

"My father gave the best training and education money can buy." That pretty much explain she was trained by experts (asari commandos for biotics), and most logical by cerberus too after she left him.

or even throws a punch in game, and you're making her Keanu Reeves from the Matrix.  Just, relax.  She doesn't have to be perfect at everything to be awesome.

I never saw Ashley thowing a punch either.

Miranda has been able to survive lots of Cerberus assassins, she survived the best melee specialist from the N7 program. In a 1-on-1 Miranda clearly wins. Ashley is a regular grunt soldier who met Shepard. Miranda is an operative with a good set of skills. shley only can count with weapons. Miranda has weapons, tech skills, biotics, and she is smarter than Ashley.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

On the job training yo. While she's killing reaper forces with Shep.

Best type of training. Learn by doing.

Yes, she trained how to shoot, not how to fight. If that's the case, Miranda had the same training.

Edit: Also, I edited my post above because I missed your comment about ballerina Kai Leng.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 03:54 .