82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

I don't think TIM wanted to use the information gathered from the base to control. He became Indoctrinated and wanted control, at the end of ME2 I think he still wants to help humanity defeat the reapers by destroying them

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

They were killed there, by the base itself.  It's not like that was just the location it happened to occur at, the base itself is a big murder weapon that murder six digits.  You're not keeping information, you're keeping the means of murder.

I mean, there's a line, right?  At which the means outweight the ends?

Right?

H-hello?  I appear to be all alone in this belief...

krukow, the base didn't kill anyone, the Collectors and the Collector General did. The base might be a murder weapon, but the weapon sure didn't handle itself.

It's war, there is no line, survival at all cost.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 03:08 .

[Babi_Siha]

Steelcan wrote...

I don't think TIM wanted to use the information gathered from the base to control. He became Indoctrinated and wanted control, at the end of ME2 I think he still wants to help humanity defeat the reapers by destroying them

I think his idea was always to control to Reapers to advance humanity.

[krukow]

Babi_Siha wrote...

krukow wrote...

They were killed there, by the base itself.  It's not like that was just the location it happened to occur at, the base itself is a big murder weapon that murder six digits.  You're not keeping information, you're keeping the means of murder.

I mean, there's a line, right?  At which the means outweight the ends?

Right?

H-hello?  I appear to be all alone in this belief...

krukow, the base didn't kill anyone, the Collectors and the Collector General did. The base might be a murder weapon, but the weapon sure didn't handle itself.

It's war, there is no line, survival at all cost.

To paraphrase the great Eddie Izzard:
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.  But I think the gun helps.  Try going up to someone and yelling "Bang!", it's not going to work...

I saw someone get liquified in ME2.  Not a collector in sight.  The base did it.  I mean, sure it's just a tool, but still.  It was the instrament of great evil, you can't keep it and retain your soul.

Miranda has a soul, right?

[fiendishchicken]

Babi_Siha wrote...

BioWare's attitude towards the fans has been worse each day that passes. I don't agree much with the retakers, but after Bioware's actions of constantly mocking fans I hope the retakers plan to boycott their games work (oh, wishful thinking)

I think there is a very simple way to solve whatever issue is left. 

Add an ending variation of destroy or refuse that kills the Reapers and only the Reapers, and we SEE Shepard survive. Done, ending problem solved.


But I have no hope in any future Bioware endeavours outside Mass Effect. I will not be buying any more of their games from them again. If I do get one, it will be used.

[jtav]

krukow, in certain museums, you can see instruments of torture and murder. Should they have been destroyed? Also, the first time a new weapon is used in war, the people it was used on usually try to reverse engineer the thing to figure out how it works so they can defend against it. However revolting, the base is only a thing, and has no moral agency of it's own. Pulping people=bad. Figuring out how the Reapers work=good. The base itself is neutral.

[MisterJB]

krukow wrote...
They were killed there, by the base itself.  It's not like that was just the location it happened to occur at, the base itself is a big murder weapon that murder six digits.  You're not keeping information, you're keeping the means of murder.

I mean, there's a line, right?  At which the means outweight the ends?

Right?

H-hello?  I appear to be all alone in this belief...

The Thanix Cannon is, basically, Sovereign's main weapon. We took it from its corpse, did some thinkering and then used it to stop the Collectors who were kidnapping human colonies. The same gun that destroyed Alliance cruisers, killing dozens of humans. And who know how many innumerable people it killed in the billions of years Sovereign existed?

A tool is not inherently immoral. Guns are a means of murder but our military uses them to keep us safe.

[wright1978]

Babi_Siha wrote...

krukow wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

I believe it was out of character for Miranda to say something like that, she's pragmatic and if there wouldn't be experiment on people then there's no problem in keeping the base. However, I like to rationalize that through the events os ME2 she's seen TIM's true colors and just didn't trust him with the collector's base at his disposal. I wish they had a more in-character dialogue though.

She's pragmatic, not evil.

This isn't keeping information.  This is keeping the actual machine used to murder hundreds of thousands.

You people remain insane, but fun

Yes, but TIM claimed he wanted the base to study the Reapers, not continue their experiments. If he were to be trusted, I see no reason why she wouldn't want to keep the base. A lot of people died there. So what?
It's done, if they could find something to help destroy the Reapers there without experimenting on people then I don't see any problem in that.

Yep if i trusted TIM i would have no hesitation in keeping the base as it could potentially hold info that might aid in taking down the reapers. Just as i have no hesitation in choosing destroy as it achieves the goal of killing the reapers despite the fact it kills the Geth and EDI. Unfortunately most of my Sheps don't trust TIM at all.

[Taboo]

I agree with lilitheris.

Miranda is more than capable of letting emotions override her professionalism. Play the game. Stop ignoring facts.

As for the base, I see no reason to give it to TIM. This is not a pragmatic decision. Miranda knows how far gone he is. Giving him that tech is only fulfilling his ulterior motive. It makes NO difference.

He wouldn't use it for humanity. He uses it for his own ends.

ME3 proves this.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 31 août 2012 - 03:16 .

[Stalker]

Very first time I actually saved the base and wondered why everyone on the ship is suddenly mad at me. I changed after I figured out (the future of) TIM's personality, but I don't see how it's so morally bad.

I am certain Cerberus won't continue melting Humans as they are researching there. It's just that they use a base that once contained evil against the Reapers.
Is it acceptable to probably let millions of people die because your moralty was in your way? How about blowing up concentration camps, because you know, there was evil stuff going on...

I can see that it's power in the wrong hands, but I can't see what should be so unhuman or even a "betrayal" about it.
The actual Miranda wouldn't say that. Maybe she would follow Shepard's orders over TIM's after being romanced or she is worried because of TIM's intentions (she researched on the "accidental" e-zero crisis that made Humans available to biotics), but not because "it feels like a betrayal"...

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 31 août 2012 - 03:18 .

[krukow]

jtav wrote...

krukow, in certain museums, you can see instruments of torture and murder. Should they have been destroyed? Also, the first time a new weapon is used in war, the people it was used on usually try to reverse engineer the thing to figure out how it works so they can defend against it. However revolting, the base is only a thing, and has no moral agency of it's own. Pulping people=bad. Figuring out how the Reapers work=good. The base itself is neutral.

There's a difference between keeping something to document horror, and keeping it for your private use/benefit.  You all are suggesting the latter.  Again, somebody mentioned that Auschwitz still stands, and it does.  But they don't rent out the buildings, because nobody in their right mind will ever use it again.

Also, I don't consider killing in war to be the same as what the collectors were doing.  They were killing and experimenting on non-combatants. 

Nuance, people, nuance!

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
The Thanix Cannon is, basically, Sovereign's main weapon. We took it from its corpse, did some thinkering and then used it to stop the Collectors who were kidnapping human colonies. The same gun that destroyed Alliance cruisers, killing dozens of humans. And who know how many innumerable people it killed in the billions of years Sovereign existed?

A tool is not inherently immoral. Guns are a means of murder but our military uses them to keep us safe.

Don't forget the Cassa Locust, the gun that killed two presidents;)

My Shep (or Kasumi) uses it to dole out the harshness.

[Ice Cold J]

Looking forward to seeing how my Miranda romance Shepard turns out.
She was an annyoance to me in ME2. B/c at first she was such a ****, but became such a tragic/relatable character by the end.

[MisterJB]

krukow wrote...
Again, somebody mentioned that Auschwitz still stands, and it does.  But they don't rent out the buildings, because nobody in their right mind will ever use it again.

Not but we use information learned through the tortures perfomed there to treat hypothermia, for instance, and the U.S Space Program was greatly aided by a National Socialist scientist after the war.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 août 2012 - 03:27 .

[Taboo]

Some of these things are not comparable. Comparing Auschwitz to the Base is utterly absurd.

The issue is using it, not keeping it around.

TIM would not use it like a museum. He would use it to further his own goals. He's nothing more than a puppet at that point. He has been for twenty years. Whatever ideals he had are gone by the time the end of ME2 comes around. Dialogue in ME3 proves this.

[jtav]

To use a less loaded example than the camps, everyone agrees mustard gas is horrific, right? After WWI, autopsies were done on soldiers that were killed that way and a decrease in white blood cell count was noted. The US did research into chemical warfare during WWII. Among the results was the first chemotherapy drug.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

krukow wrote...
Again, somebody mentioned that Auschwitz still stands, and it does.  But they don't rent out the buildings, because nobody in their right mind will ever use it again.

Not but we use information learned through the tortures perfomed there to treat hypothermia, for instance, and the U.S Space Program was greatly aided by a National Socialist scientist after the war.

So?

Stop presenting fallacies to justify your viewpoint. TIM is NOT using the base for those purposes.

Stop ignoring facts.

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...
You're not keeping information, you're keeping the means of murder.

And? Is there anything to say against keeping a weapon someone was murdered with in order to extract information about the one who ordered it?

You are not murdering anyone nor condoning what was done, damn it? Why the hell is that so hard to see?

And yes, giving it to TIM may make you complicit with what he'll do with it. But keeping the base as such and studying it presents no evil. I see Miranda being perfectly able and willing to make that distinction. Were she not, she would never have gotten very high in Cerberus.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 03:35 .

[jtav]

Taboo, it is not a fallacy, The argument Miranda actually makes and that Paragon Shep makes is that using the base per se is wrong because of what was done there. It is an argument I reject.

[lillitheris]

Babi_Siha wrote...

 A lot of people died there. So what?

This basically summarizes a very troubling mindset.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

And yes, giving it to TIM may make you complicit with what he'll do with it. But keeping the base as such and studying it presents no evil.

It isn't about evil. Don't associate me with krukow.

The fact remains that that base would NEVER be able to be studied. Why?

TIM used it for his own ends. Cerberus and Cerberus only. Humanity is not going to benefit. Stop trying to argue this point. This is not Auschwitz. This is not Mustard Gas. This is not going to benefit anyone.

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
So?

Stop presenting fallacies to justify your viewpoint. TIM is NOT using the base for those purposes.

Stop ignoring facts.

What jtav said

jtav wrote...

Taboo, it is not a fallacy, The argument
Miranda actually makes and that Paragon Shep makes is that using the
base per se is wrong because of what was done there. It is an argument I
reject.

[Babi_Siha]

Taboo, the fact that Miranda can be emotional was never in question, but she's also all for the end justifies the means. It all comes down to TIM, who can't be trusted. If Hackett wanted to keep the base would it be considered a souless act? I don't think so. So the problem is how she responded, Miranda could say "you've gone too far to keep this base"; that would be an emotional response because she was challenging her boss and a more in-character one since I don't think she would object keeping the base if she still trusted TIM. 

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 04:09 .