82210 réponses à ce sujet

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...
You're not keeping information, you're keeping the means of murder.

And? Is there anything to say against keeping a weapon someone was murdered with in order to extract information about the one who ordered it?

You are not murdering anyone nor condoning what was done, damn it? Why the hell is that so hard to see?

And yes, giving it to TIM may make you complicit with what he'll do with it. But keeping the base as such and studying it presents no evil. I see Miranda being perfectly able and willing to make that distinction. Were she not, she would never have gotten very high in Cerberus.

You're not keeping it to find out who killed them.  You already know.

You're not keeping it to help punish those who killed them, you already did that.

You're keeping it for your own use.  Even pre ME3, TIM wanted it for human dominance.  If you keep it, you're agreeing with him.

It's just wrong.


I don't know how to explain this to you all beyond just simple morality.  It's wrong.

I guess that's why I'm an ashmancer, less pragmatism...

[krukow]

Babi_Siha wrote...

If Hackett wanted to keep the base would it be considered a souless act? 

Wouldn't happen.

[lillitheris]

jtav wrote...

Taboo, it is not a fallacy, The argument Miranda actually makes and that Paragon Shep makes is that using the base per se is wrong because of what was done there. It is an argument I reject.

You’re welcome to reject it. Miranda doesn’t.

And in this case, I don’t think it’s ‘OOC’—it’s a culminating point of the entire arc, it wasn’t just thrown out there. It was carefully considered and decided that Miranda’s character growth leads her to think about frivolous things like the deaths of millions. Pretty much every single culture on Earth has independently decided that disturbing a grave site is one of the most disrespectful things that you can do.

It’s just you wanting the character to be something she isn’t.

[CrutchCricket]

Taboo-XX wrote...
The fact remains that that base would NEVER be able to be studied. Why?

TIM used it for his own ends. Cerberus and Cerberus only. Humanity is not going to benefit. Stop trying to argue this point. This is not Auschwitz. This is not Mustard Gas. This is not going to benefit anyone.

And if Miranda had said that, I doubt we'd be having this discussion.

But what she did say is a little harder to justify without resorting to the "tainted" argument.

I believe it can be done. But I think I'm alone in how I justify it.

[MisterJB]

krukow wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

If Hackett wanted to keep the base would it be considered a souless act? 

Wouldn't happen.

Nonsense. What General worth its salt would refuse using a gun just because it's dirty?

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

Taboo, it is not a fallacy, The argument Miranda actually makes and that Paragon Shep makes is that using the base per se is wrong because of what was done there. It is an argument I reject.

There are more than enough facts to justify our view points. You're angry because it doesn't fit your idea of the character. You are using obscene comparisons in order to justify your viewpoints. Some of them are NOT comparible. Fallacy.

Miranda was always going to end up like this. The loyalist who learns that the organization they were a part of wasn't all that. This derailment you speak of is nothing more than character growth.

Understand that people have been messaging me asking what the hell is going on in this thread. Asking me how you can treat Miranda like this. They are absolutly disgusted with some of you. I want you to know that, as you're turning this thread into a spectacle.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 31 août 2012 - 03:45 .

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

krukow wrote...
Again, somebody mentioned that Auschwitz still stands, and it does.  But they don't rent out the buildings, because nobody in their right mind will ever use it again.

Not but we use information learned through the tortures perfomed there to treat hypothermia, for instance, and the U.S Space Program was greatly aided by a National Socialist scientist after the war.

I’m not getting into whatever Taboo is arguing about (I have no idea, once again) but I’ll point out that you are committing a fallacy here.

You have the implied premise that this information could only have been obtained from these circumstances. This is not true.

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Miranda was always going to end up like this. The loyalist who learns that the organization they were a part of wasn't all that. This derailment you speak of is nothing more than character growth.

Miranda is not making a statement about Cerberus or The Illusive Man!

She is taking an absolute moral stance whereas before she believed in practicality and moral ambiguity. It's OOC.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 août 2012 - 03:47 .

[jtav]

If it was character growth, we'd be able to chart it. X happened so now Miranda thinks Y instead of Z. We are never given X. And considering the last moral judgment we see her make was leaving the crew to die and we see her justifying the Binthu experiments, I feel justified in calling it OOC. It was put in there to justify her resignation two lines later.

[hot_heart]

I can see the arguments from both sides. The problem is that the game only presents absolutes, and it's about Shepard, not Miranda. There doesn't seem to be the option for "We should keep the data and stuff but I am totally deleting all the Reaper-making manuals". And Miranda is being aligned with Shepard, of course.

The dialogue from TIM, whether Miranda is present or not, strongly suggests he intends to create or manipulate a Reaper. I think the Control idea was always an underlying part of the writing, just not made explicit at the time. That would reinforce why the writers phrased it that way. Not saying it's right, but the writers are guilty of precognitive dialogue at certain times (Miranda's last conversation in ME3 even feels like that).

I also get the sense that Miranda managed to cope with the dubious Cerberus stuff because of the detachment she was allowed. Everything in ME2 brought her round, and I can imagine seeing people mooshed into goop is unnerving no matter how trained you are ("Seeing it first-hand...")

I don't know if anyone here has seen Spooks (called MI5 in the US, I believe) but there was a character, Tom, who went through a similar arc. I get that sort of vibe with Miranda.

Modifié par hot_heart, 31 août 2012 - 03:48 .

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
I’m not getting into whatever Taboo is arguing about (I have no idea, once again) but I’ll point out that you are committing a fallacy here.

You have the implied premise that this information could only have been obtained from these circumstances. This is not true.

I'm implying nothing. All I'm saying is that humans have previously salvaged useful information from less than savory sources and this is no different.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 août 2012 - 03:52 .

[Babi_Siha]

lillitheris wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote...

 A lot of people died there. So what?

This basically summarizes a very troubling mindset.

You can think that if you like, but I see no problem in keeping something like the base if it was done for the right purpose. Of course that wouldn't be the case with TIM, but if someone reliable wanted to keep the base to actually try to achieve something good out of it than its taint shouldn't be taken into consideration.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 31 août 2012 - 04:10 .

[wright1978]

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Miranda was always going to end up like this. The loyalist who learns that the organization they were a part of wasn't all that. This derailment you speak of is nothing more than character growth.

Miranda is not making a statement about Cerberus or The Illusive Man!

She is taking an absolute moral stance whereas before she believed in practicality and moral ambiguity. It's OOC.

yep this.

[Ice Cold J]

Guess I came in at the wrong time...
IMO, blow the base. Who's to say the Reapers didn't have a fail-safe on it or it's a giant indoctrination device. I mean, Cerebus did SO well working on that derelict reaper and NOT beoming indoctrinated, right?

[lillitheris]

jtav wrote...

If it was character growth, we'd be able to chart it. X happened so now Miranda thinks Y instead of Z. We are never given X. And considering the last moral judgment we see her make was leaving the crew to die and we see her justifying the Binthu experiments, I feel justified in calling it OOC. It was put in there to justify her resignation two lines later.

We can certainly chart it. The simplest fact is the shifting loyalty to Shepard. Her defense of Cerberus activities wanes constantly.

The decision to delay the SM is later, but it’s an incomparable situation. You can’t assert equality there.

I’m sure you feel justified, but I think it’s a perfectly reasonable development. Furthermore, as I pointed out earlier, I’m not really sure that the Miranda who is actually OK with all this would be capable of love, if you care about the LI aspect at all.

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...
You're not keeping information, you're keeping the means of murder.

And? Is there anything to say against keeping a weapon someone was murdered with in order to extract information about the one who ordered it?

You are not murdering anyone nor condoning what was done, damn it? Why the hell is that so hard to see?

And yes, giving it to TIM may make you complicit with what he'll do with it. But keeping the base as such and studying it presents no evil. I see Miranda being perfectly able and willing to make that distinction. Were she not, she would never have gotten very high in Cerberus.

You're not keeping it to find out who killed them.  You already know.

Oh my, this is getting tiresome.

THE BASE IS  A REAPER FACTORY!!! YOU CAN FIND OUT IF THEY HAVE WEAKNESSES THERE!

At least that how it looks at the end of ME2. And that is most empathically not wrong in any even remotely contrived way!

Even pre ME3, TIM wanted it for human dominance.

Yes, and that is why destroying is because Miranda doesn't trust TIM anymore is ok for Miranda, while destroying it because of what was done there is out of character.

If you keep it, you're agreeing with him.

That does not follow. I am keeping it, and I most emphatically do not agree with TIM's methods. I just think we cannot afford to overlook this resource since we are in a damned war for survival against a damned technologically superior enemy. This is basic logic, really.

It's just wrong.
I don't know how to explain this to you all beyond just simple morality.  It's wrong.

Morality isn't simple. Were it that, we wouldn't have this debate. The assertion "it's just wrong, I know it" always comes out when there are no arguments left. I've seen it countless times. The plain fact is, you do NOT know. You feel. You may feel it with the conviction of a religious belief, but that does not make it true.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 03:58 .

[hot_heart]

Ice Cold J wrote...
Guess I came in at the wrong time...
IMO, blow the base. Who's to say the Reapers didn't have a fail-safe on it or it's a giant indoctrination device. I mean, Cerebus did SO well working on that derelict reaper and NOT beoming indoctrinated, right?

I don't think the practicality is the issue. Seems we're all agreed on that.

It's about the moral/ethical standpoint of Miranda. Whether the ends justify the means.

[lillitheris]

Ice Cold J wrote...

Guess I came in at the wrong time...
IMO, blow the base. Who's to say the Reapers didn't have a fail-safe on it or it's a giant indoctrination device. I mean, Cerebus did SO well working on that derelict reaper and NOT beoming indoctrinated, right?

There are many valid reasons for destroying it, but that’s not the issue. The issue is that Miranda is backing the decision at least partially for moral reasons, and some apparently feel that she’s amoral enough that this is OOC (out of character).

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Miranda was always going to end up like this. The loyalist who learns that the organization they were a part of wasn't all that. This derailment you speak of is nothing more than character growth.

Miranda is not making a statement about Cerberus or The Illusive Man!

She is taking an absolute moral stance whereas before she believed in practicality and moral ambiguity. It's OOC.

I'm sorry but this just isn't true.

You're wrong about the character and you have been for three years. Ever wonder why the info that's coming out doesn't suprise some of us? Because we were expecting it. We knew this was the path the character was going to take.

You're angry and bitter that your vision of the character didn't turn out the way you wanted. You disregard facts in order to justify your viewpoints.

They don't call you when they want Miranda related help in the story forum. They call me. They call Ventus. They even call krukow sometimes.

People absolutely despise what you make Miranda out to be. They've told me this. And they're coming for you.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 31 août 2012 - 04:02 .

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
You have the implied premise that this information could only have been obtained from these circumstances. This is not true.

I'm implying nothing. All I'm saying is that humans have previously salvaged useful information from less than savory sources and this is no different.

Of course it is. There’s a huge difference: it hasn’t happened yet. There’s f— all you can do about the past, but the future you can influence.

The decision could be argued using your logic, but you would then need to make explicit the premise that the information is absolutely necessary, and that it cannot be learned by any other means.

Or, to illustrate: if given the choice, would you rather have the ‘hypothermia research’ be done in Auschwitz, or by some other means (even if unknown at the time)?

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

Guess I came in at the wrong time...
IMO, blow the base. Who's to say the Reapers didn't have a fail-safe on it or it's a giant indoctrination device. I mean, Cerebus did SO well working on that derelict reaper and NOT beoming indoctrinated, right?

There are many valid reasons for destroying it, but that’s not the issue. The issue is that Miranda is backing the decision at least partially for moral reasons, and some apparently feel that she’s amoral enough that this is OOC (out of character).

Actually no. I claim that what was done at the base has no moral significance for the decision to keep or destroy it (see my rather conclusive logic two pages back at the bottom). What will - likely - be done with it, that has significance. So, if Miranda recommends destroying the base because she doesn't trust TIM not to cross a line she rather wouldn't see crossed with it, then that I can accept, because it's a risk of tangible evil we're talking about, and the morality displayed is rational. If Miranda recommends to destroy it because of what was done there, she doesn't display rational morality but sentimentality that's actually of no moral significance, and that is stupid and irresponsible in the situation. I think Miranda would not be stupid and irresponsible if the survival of humanity hangs on her decisiosn.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 04:04 .

[lillitheris]

hot_heart wrote...

I also get the sense that Miranda managed to cope with the dubious Cerberus stuff because of the detachment she was allowed. Everything in ME2 brought her round, and I can imagine seeing people mooshed into goop is unnerving no matter how trained you are ("Seeing it first-hand...")

I’d wager the vast majority here has not seen a single violent death, let alone that of millions. It’s just a video game, which makes it hard to actually empathize with her fully.

[Ice Cold J]

I feel that it's wrong morally. I guess the Aushwitz (sp?) analogy is close enough. There's just an air of atrocity that will linger there forever, so using those grounds as anything other than a memorial seems unfeeling.
I guess there's a certain "revenge factor" morally in using the Collector base against the Reapers, but I don't think that stacks up to the other side of the coin.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Actually no. I claim that what was done at the base has no moral significance for the decision to keep or destroy it (see my rather conclusive logic two pages back at the bottom).

Your logic is inconclusive until you factor in the emotional weight of the issue as it affects people involved in any future projects.

If Miranda recommends to destroy it because of what was done there, she doesn't display rational morality but sentimentality that's actually of no moral significance,

This is completely incorrect. The morality is significant. You can only argue that the moral question should be set aside for the consideration, not that it is invalid.

[Ice Cold J]

lillitheris wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

Guess I came in at the wrong time...
IMO, blow the base. Who's to say the Reapers didn't have a fail-safe on it or it's a giant indoctrination device. I mean, Cerebus did SO well working on that derelict reaper and NOT beoming indoctrinated, right?

There are many valid reasons for destroying it, but that’s not the issue. The issue is that Miranda is backing the decision at least partially for moral reasons, and some apparently feel that she’s amoral enough that this is OOC (out of character).

Characters CAN change, you know.

Liara goes from shy and naive to being the galaxy's most powerful (and somewhat ruthless) information broker. Mordin does a complete 180 on the Genophage. Ash sees the value of working with aliens. Heck, Zaeed drops his necessity for revenge when he realizes there are bigger things to deal with. Plus, Jack's teaching KIDS now?

I thiknk by the end, Miranda has seen enough and hung around Shep long enough to change an opinion or two.