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[lillitheris]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Instead of name-calling you could actually make a point and tell me how using an empty facility is so morally wrong that someone like Miranda would reject it.

What makes researching there so questionable?

Someone like Miranda herself feels that the moral cost would be too high. It’s disrespectful, and it can feel like partly justifying the atrocities. Therefore, it would be morally wrong to do so.

You can argue that on a purely intellectual level there is nothing wrong with it*, but the fact remains that most people—Miranda included—do not consider it on a purely intellectual level.


* Actually, as I have pointed out, even on a purely intellectual level you would have to take into account that others will not consider it similarly, and the problems that that would cause.

[Steelcan]

@ Taboo, but you do not know that at ME2 ending, the decision must be made in the context of the level, hindsight is 20/20

[lillitheris]

Steelcan wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

flemm wrote...

But I bolded part of your post because, in the actual context when this happens, that is basically what is at stake. It's clear from the scene that TIM and MIranda have discussed the possibility of keeping the base, and she decides she doesn't trust him with it.

That’s not really the source of the argument here, flemm.

Or, well, I’m not sure how far in the deep end Ieldra2 is, but I think everyone else has stated that they would have been OK if Miranda had backed destroying on the basis that TIM can’t be trusted with it. We’re mostly in agreement there.

The problem is that Miranda actually presented a moral reason unto herself.

she never argued that it should be destroyed because TIM shouldn't use it, she argued that keeping it was immoral

…That’s exactly what I said. If you’re trying to disagree, you failed

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...
A vast majority of people would be uncomfortable with using the base for research. You cannot ignore this. You can argue that they are ‘wrong’ until you’re blue in the face…but they’d still be uncomfortable with it.

This has very real implications.

That's basically correct but it's a descriptive account. I was arguing a normative position. Basically, what you're saying is that if a majority of people feels its morally wrong, then it *is* morally wrong. That's a logical fallacy.

If there is no tangible good or evil in an action, there is no moral significance. If you base your decision on what was done there alone, that is not a rational moral decision. You are doing nothing wrong if you study the base because no harm results from it. Simple. giving it to a person with a history of committing atrocities, yes, that is significant, but studying it is not.

No. First, don’t backpedal out of the sentimentality. Secondly, there is plenty of actual future harm caused by disturbing a grave site and using the fruits of atrocities.

If you want to ignore that, that’s fine. I mean I find it a little scary, but it is a valid position to hold.

However, it’s not a valid position to assert that the past atrocities have no moral significance.

I guess you want to make the assertion that it encourages future atrocities if you use the research. Well, no, that does not follow, it's just used as a justification to be sentimental about things. I've been in an argument about **** atrocities, the predominant position there was that if nobody gains credit for the results and if the atrocities won't be forgotten, then it will not encourage future atrocities. I find that convincing.

[Taboo]

Steelcan wrote...

@ Taboo, but you do not know that at ME2 ending, the decision must be made in the context of the level, hindsight is 20/20

Not if you believe he'll use it only to suit his own ends. That's the idea here.

He won't use it for humanity. He uses it for his own goals.

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@ Taboo, but you do not know that at ME2 ending, the decision must be made in the context of the level, hindsight is 20/20

Not if you believe he'll use it only to suit his own ends. That's the idea here.

He won't use it for humanity. He uses it for his own goals.

. Why think that?  Up until ME3 you have no reason to assume he is not looking out for humanity in his own (twisted admittedly) way?  Or did I miss something

[Taboo]

Arguing that something is not morally wrong because a minority believes it isn't is also a fallacy Ieldra.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 31 août 2012 - 04:51 .

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Ad Hominem attacks are not a good way to get your point across.

True which is why I edited my post before you responded.

Each decision needs to be based upon each individual situation. That is pragmatism. Best solution as Mordin would say. Sometimes an authoritarian action is taken. Other times it is not.

I bring up everything else because it plays into the human side. The one that feels. The one that's capable of understanding moral reasoning. A human being. She isn't a goody goody two shoes but she isn't an unfeeling machine either. She is more than capable of sentimentality. She disregards professionalism more than once. Can you guess what that situations are?

The base will not benefit humanity. It will benefit a man who is Indoctrinated.

"Strength for humanity, or strength for Cerberus?"

I suspect you insist on bringing up Cerberus because that is what you use to justify destroying the base. However, that is not what Miranda used. Her decision is not pragmatic, it does not take into account what might be gained versus what will have to be sacrificed. It is based entirely on sentimentality and how bad she will fell by keeping the Base.
And while Miranda is not an unfeeling machine, previously, she never allowed for sentimentality to get in the way of the mission unless Oriana was in direct danger which she wasn't.
In fact, destroying the Base places Oriana in more danger since the Reapers are coming.

Had Miranda said she didn't want to trust TIM with the Base, that would be fine, that would actually be character development. Taking a moral stance, however, it's completely off character.

[Taboo]

Steelcan wrote...

Why think that?  Up until ME3 you have no reason to assume he is not looking out for humanity in his own (twisted admittedly) way?  Or did I miss something

Whatever Cerberus was is long dead.

If you don't trust TIM you don't have to believe that he'll use the base for humanity. He'll use it for Cerberus.

And as it turns out, this assumption is correct.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
A vast majority of people would be uncomfortable with using the base for research. You cannot ignore this. You can argue that they are ‘wrong’ until you’re blue in the face…but they’d still be uncomfortable with it.

This has very real implications.

That's basically correct but it's a descriptive account. I was arguing a normative position. Basically, what you're saying is that if a majority of people feels its morally wrong, then it *is* morally wrong. That's a logical fallacy.

No, I’m just arguing that they feel it’s morally wrong. Including Miranda.

I guess you want to make the assertion that it encourages future atrocities if you use the research.

I’m not making such an assertion, no.

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...
Or, well, I’m not sure how far in the deep end Ieldra2 is, but I think everyone else has stated that they would have been OK if Miranda had backed destroying on the basis that TIM can’t be trusted with it. We’re mostly in agreement there.

If I may quote a post of mine that YOU have answered:

So, if Miranda recommends destroying the base because she doesn't trust TIM not to cross a line she rather wouldn't see crossed with it, then that I can accept, because it's a risk of tangible evil we're talking about, and the morality displayed is rational. If Miranda recommends to destroy it because of what was done there, she doesn't display rational morality but sentimentality that's actually of no moral significance, and that is stupid and irresponsible in the situation. I think Miranda would not be stupid and irresponsible if the survival of humanity hangs on her decisions.

So would you please stop insulting me. First krukow, and how you. I'm having enough of sentimental twits and trolls acting as if they had dissected my arguments and being condescending about it on top of it. And regarding Steelcap, he HAS disagreed with you. You could at least be honest enough with yourself to see when you're out of your depth. Yes, that was personal.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 04:56 .

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why think that?  Up until ME3 you have no reason to assume he is not looking out for humanity in his own (twisted admittedly) way?  Or did I miss something

Whatever Cerberus was is long dead.

If you don't trust TIM you don't have to believe that he'll use the base for humanity. He'll use it for Cerberus.

And as it turns out, this assumption is correct.

. Yes you know that in the future, but at the end of ME2 saving the base makes more sense than blowing it up

[krukow]

You know, when you press her about it, she stresses how there was no loss of human or sentient life in those experiments from ME1. She makes it clear that those were acceptable to her because of clearly defined boundaries. It's actually important that there was some sort of moral line they didn't cross.

It is completely in character for her to be not okay with the collector base given the insane loss of human life that occured within it.

I don't know why you all want to turn her into a soulless fascist with no regard for human life, but for the first time, I think Mac Walters (or whoever) did a much better job of writing her than her fans would have. At least ME3 Miranda is human.

[Ieldra]

@krukow:
You still don't understand. The past is the past, you are not responsible for it. You are responsible for the future. Miranda would not accept using the base for further atrocities, but she wouldn't discount studying it just because of the atrocities in its past. If you can't see that doesn't make her a "soulless fascist" I can't help you.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 04:59 .

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda would not accept using the base for atrocities, but she wouldn't discount studying it just because of the atrocities in its past.

You’re wrong: she does.

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda would not accept using the base for atrocities, but she wouldn't discount studying it just because of the atrocities in its past.

You’re wrong: she does.

That's why I say it's out of character. Accepting this would completely destroys her "Cerberus operative" personality, with absolutely no hope of recovery. She would never have risen so far in Cerberus with that kind of attitude.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 05:03 .

[MisterJB]

krukow wrote...

You know, when you press her about it, she stresses how there was no loss of human or sentient life in those experiments from ME1. She makes it clear that those were acceptable to her because of clearly defined boundaries. It's actually important that there was some sort of moral line they didn't cross.

It is completely in character for her to be not okay with the collector base given the insane loss of human life that occured within it.

I don't know why you all want to turn her into a soulless fascist with no regard for human life, but for the first time, I think Mac Walters (or whoever) did a much better job of writing her than her fans would have. At least ME3 Miranda is human.

No, it is completely in character for her to not be okay with Sanctuary because thousands of people were experimented on and murdered there. However, having a problem with the fact someone has murdered people but still use valuable research learned through said murder to help others are not mutually exclusive. Even Hackett understood this.

So, no one has said they wish Miranda was soulless or fascist. I see refusing to use the Collector Base as placing your own moralities over the lives of others.

[krukow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@krukow:
You still don't understand. The past is the past, you are not responsible for it. You are responsible for the future. Miranda would not accept using the base for further atrocities, but she wouldn't discount studying it just because of the atrocities in its past. If you can't see that doesn't make her a "soulless fascist" I can't help you.

You're responsible for how you react to the past.  You want her to ignore what happened.  To treat the dead as a sunk cost.

You want her to have a complete disregard for the value of human life.

Thankfully she doesn't.  She makes the right choice.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So would you please stop insulting me. First krukow, and how you. I'm having enough of sentimental twits and trolls acting as if they had dissected my arguments and being condescending about it on top of it. And regarding Steelcap, he HAS disagreed with you. You could at least be honest enough with yourself to see when you're out of your depth. Yes, that was personal.

Aww, you should be personal more often! It’s nice, isn’t it?

Perhaps I read your other statements as a little more extreme than you intended them. If you say you’re OK with rejecting on the basis of distrust in TIM and no further, then that’s great. Mind, I still consider it perfectly IC for her to dismiss it for moral reasons—she’s just not what you want her to be.

I’ll have to wait steelcap to explain how they’re disagreeing (if that’s the case)…in both cases, they’ve essentially repeated what I wrote.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

I suspect you insist on bringing up Cerberus because that is what you use to justify destroying the base. However, that is not what Miranda used. Her decision is not pragmatic, it does not take into account what might be gained versus what will have to be sacrificed. It is based entirely on sentimentality and how bad she will fell by keeping the Base.
And while Miranda is not an unfeeling machine, previously, she never allowed for sentimentality to get in the way of the mission unless Oriana was in direct danger which she wasn't.
In fact, destroying the Base places Oriana in more danger since the Reapers are coming.

Had Miranda said she didn't want to trust TIM with the Base, that would be fine, that would actually be character development. Taking a moral stance, however, it's completely off character.

Oh? And perhaps lives will be saved by preventing TIM from using that tech? I seem to recall that all he really uses that base for is implanting his troops. Furthering his own goals. Oriana will not benefit either way. That is not applicable here. Don't make the comparison.

Oriana is not the only thing Miranda is sentimental about. You've almost got it. She lets emotions override her professionalism. This happens more than once.

And it culminates in the Collector Base.

I'm not suprised by these developments. At all. Neither are others here. Whatever you thought she was never the case. This is content that shipped with the game. I didn't need dossiers to tell me this. I didn't need ME3 to know this.

Some Weird Sin.

[Berg]

I always read but rarely post here. Feel I have to say though that it seems clear to me that using an awful, awful place for the good of the galaxy is not a bad act.

Destroying it because of what happened before is not a good act if it can be used at a dire time for the entire galaxy to do some good.

Of course you may say that it will not be used for good, that TIM is indoctrinated, etc. That is a separate, and potentially valid point.

Just my two cents.

Modifié par oh brother, 31 août 2012 - 05:07 .

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
@krukow:
You still don't understand. The past is the past, you are not responsible for it. You are responsible for the future. Miranda would not accept using the base for further atrocities, but she wouldn't discount studying it just because of the atrocities in its past. If you can't see that doesn't make her a "soulless fascist" I can't help you.

You're responsible for how you react to the past.  You want her to ignore what happened.  To treat the dead as a sunk cost.

Well, the dead ARE dead. As opposed to the living, they can't be saved. The living, they may be saved by using data collected from the base. or so it looks at the end of ME2. That this turns out otherwise is a different matter.

You want her to have a complete disregard for the value of human life.

How exactly is it disregarding human life if I value the good of the living higher than sentimentality about those already dead?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 05:09 .

[flemm]

krukow wrote...
I don't know why you all want to turn her into a soulless fascist with no regard for human life, but for the first time, I think Mac Walters (or whoever) did a much better job of writing her than her fans would have. At least ME3 Miranda is human.

There I think you're distorting the point that is being made. As you say, Miranda has always had plenty of regard for human life. The whole point of the mission in ME2 is to save lives. She doesn't approve of experimenting on sentient life, etc. Of course she doesn't approve of Sanctuary in ME3.

The point that some make is much less extreme than that. The idea is simply that the base can possibly be used to obtain valuable information that could be used to defeat the Reapers (and thereby save lives). So keeping it can be about saving lives, potentially.

I don't personally have a problem with Miranda not thinking in those terms at that moment, or all the time. But really it's not a question of whether or not Miranda values human life.

Modifié par flemm, 31 août 2012 - 05:11 .

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda would not accept using the base for atrocities, but she wouldn't discount studying it just because of the atrocities in its past.

You’re wrong: she does.

That's why I say it's out of character.

I know you do. But it’s not…this was a deliberate arc, plotted exactly thus. This is the character. She’s not what you want her to be, and I’m sorry about it, but it is what it is.

Accepting this would completely destroys her "Cerberus operative" personality, with absolutely no hope of recovery.

It does destroy it, yes.

She would never have risen so far in Cerberus with that kind of attitude.

That’s also true. She clearly learned to be a better person at some point along the way.

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Oh? And perhaps lives will be saved by preventing TIM from using that tech? I seem to recall that all he really uses that base for is implanting his troops. Furthering his own goals. Oriana will not benefit either way. That is not applicable here. Don't make the comparison.

Miranda does not mention TIM in her argument. Stop bringing him up.

Oriana is not the only thing Miranda is sentimental about. You've almost got it. She lets emotions override her professionalism. This happens more than once.

And it culminates in the Collector Base.

Please, do "enlighten" us.