Aller au contenu

Photo

"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


82210 réponses à ce sujet

#71351
krukow

krukow
  • Members
  • 3 943 messages

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here, the main goal of punishment is reintegration into society.


I think that’s a little off the mark, even in the EU. While there is certainly more emphasis on rehabilitation (with more success, too), the punishment is for the crime. In addition to this, the punishment is also used to try to rehabilitate rather than solely punish.


It's a goal, but the secondary one.  First and foremost is justice for the victim.

That's why you can have some sentences just be fines.  Rehabilitation isn't needed, just a balancing of the scales.

#71352
MisterJB

MisterJB
  • Members
  • 15 596 messages

Taboo-XX wrote...
Yes we do. Other facts in the game that you're ignoring.

The development in the Dossiers and ME3 only further these points.

Whatever you thought she was was wrong, which is why you have a hard time accepting these character developments in subsequent information dumps.

There was no derailment. There was only clarification.

Her appearence in ME3 is unbalanced, but she is not an imposter.


Because loving your sister and wanting a child somehow equal moral absolutism.
I'm sure Miranda destroyed all of the information on Sanctuary. Wait, actually they saved it.
So, both games present evidence that indicates Miranda was OOC in the Collector Base.

#71353
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
No. I want you to do it yourself. I'm not going to hold your hand in this case. Think of it like a school project. Go back, record what you see and come back. Pay attention to her every movement. It's far more beneficial to come to these realizations yourself.

lilitheris sees it. krukow sees it. I see it. Ventus sees it. dtrain sees it. The people who ask why you say these things see it.

And in the end she will always be that way. Just as the Dossiers came to show. Just as ME3 shows.


Go plow yourself.



The character is not who you thought they were. It's time to move on.

#71354
MisterJB

MisterJB
  • Members
  • 15 596 messages

Taboo-XX wrote...
The character is not who you thought they were. It's time to move on.

Your condescending attitude continues to irritate me.

#71355
jtav

jtav
  • Members
  • 13 965 messages
I think that's definitely a cultural marker. I don't view retribution as the primary goal of punishment. Rehabilitation, deterrence, and protection all rate much higher. Vengeance is not a virtue.

#71356
lillitheris

lillitheris
  • Members
  • 5 332 messages

MisterJB wrote...

For instance, Miranda believes Legion should be studied despite the fact its people have killed millions of humans. How is that not also a betrayal, then?


First, you have to account for time. Miranda grows into something she is not in the beginning.

On the topic of Legion in particular, you’re oversimplifying. If we go back to the popular gun analogy, Legion is like studying a revolver whereas the base is like using a club made of the bones of murder victims.

Now, even if the Legion case were much more similar, she could still choose differently later, when her understanding has grown.

Your believable arc is only thus because you assume Miranda is unchangeably amoral.

#71357
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages
Well, it has been a lively debate, but I'm going to get out now, I have some ME2 to play. As a final note, let me say that notions of sanctity do not occupy a prominent position in my meta-ethics. I am a rather secular person and given about 99% of Miranda's presentation in ME2 and ME3, basically at any place except the CB, I see no reason to believe that Miranda isn't similar in that.

I resent the narrowing of Miranda's character in ME3, but I cannot claim that her obsession with Oriana as such is out of character. It's just that they forgot the other half of her. As opposed to that, I think I have reason to claim that about Miranda's "betrayal" line at the CB. Nothing before *and* after this scene supports that Miranda would destroy the base because of what was done there, out of "respect for the dead".

#71358
wright1978

wright1978
  • Members
  • 8 116 messages

krukow wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Hope you don't pick destroy ending or Shep is going to get the electric chair.


Yup, neccessary collateral damage=murder.

Stop being simple.


Shep knows in advance he's murdering an entire species for the greater good. I'm happy to accept that as a cost.
You're the one claiming potentially finding a means of destroying the reapers from base used to kill people is so fundamentally wrong it cannot be considered and the user should be punished.
 

#71359
Skullheart

Skullheart
  • Members
  • 4 345 messages
Killing a husk, is murder?

The reapers aren't civilizations anymore, they are like giant husks, puppets of the catalyst. The previous civilizations died when the catalyst harvested them. We are honouring the previous species destroying the reapers.

The only bad thing about destroy is the death of the geth, nothing more.

#71360
lillitheris

lillitheris
  • Members
  • 5 332 messages

jtav wrote...

I think that's definitely a cultural marker. I don't view retribution as the primary goal of punishment. Rehabilitation, deterrence, and protection all rate much higher. Vengeance is not a virtue.


It’s certainly not a virtue, no. But, importantly, it exists.

It’s a hard balance to strike. While, ideally, a murderer could be rehabilitated, is it really enough that they won’t kill somebody else? Nothing will bring the dead person back, but is it right by them, that stolen life, that the murderer won’t kill again? I think there’s a valid case to be made for punishment.

“For such a loss, abundant recompense”. I think that’s the name of a fic, actually. I liked the sentence.

#71361
flemm

flemm
  • Members
  • 5 786 messages

wright1978 wrote...
Shep knows in advance he's murdering an entire species for the greater good. I'm happy to accept that as a cost.
You're the one claiming potentially finding a means of destroying the reapers from base used to kill people is so fundamentally wrong it cannot be considered and the user should be punished.
 



Yeah, I don't see how actually killing a lot of sentient beings for the purpose of eliminating a threat to other lives can be spontaneously ok, while keeping/studying some tech that had previously been used to kill a lot of sentient beings for the purposes of possibly avoiding future deaths is innately wrong.

I think you really have to resort to less absolute arguments to sort that out.

For example, the idea that destroy is the best available option.

Or, for the base, that it doesn't make sense to let Cerberus have it.

Modifié par flemm, 31 août 2012 - 05:48 .


#71362
lillitheris

lillitheris
  • Members
  • 5 332 messages

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, it has been a lively debate, but I'm going to get out now, I have some ME2 to play. As a final note, let me say that notions of sanctity do not occupy a prominent position in my meta-ethics. I am a rather secular person and given about 99% of Miranda's presentation in ME2 and ME3, basically at any place except the CB, I see no reason to believe that Miranda isn't similar in that.


Food for thought: maybe the issue isn’t that Miranda changed, but that you have not been exposed to circumstances that would change you?



Anyway, I want to clarify that I have in no way addressed ME3. Just ME2.

#71363
wright1978

wright1978
  • Members
  • 8 116 messages

flemm wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Shep knows in advance he's murdering an entire species for the greater good. I'm happy to accept that as a cost.
You're the one claiming potentially finding a means of destroying the reapers from base used to kill people is so fundamentally wrong it cannot be considered and the user should be punished.
 



Yeah, I don't see how actually killing a lot of sentient beings can be spontaneously ok, while keeping/studying some tech that had previously been used to kill a lot of sentient beings for the purposes of possibly avoiding future deaths is innately wrong.

I think you really have to resort to less absolute arguments to sort that out.

For example, the idea that destroy is the best available option.

Or, for the base, that it doesn't make sense to let Cerberus have it.


Yep Flemm. I actually rarely keep the base but that's because i don't trust TIM.

#71364
lillitheris

lillitheris
  • Members
  • 5 332 messages

flemm wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Shep knows in advance he's murdering an entire species for the greater good. I'm happy to accept that as a cost.
You're the one claiming potentially finding a means of destroying the reapers from base used to kill people is so fundamentally wrong it cannot be considered and the user should be punished.
 



Yeah, I don't see how actually killing a lot of sentient beings can be spontaneously ok, while keeping/studying some tech that had previously been used to kill a lot of sentient beings for the purposes of possibly avoiding future deaths is innately wrong.

I think you really have to resort to less absolute arguments to sort that out.


Well, let’s move away from absolutes: do you agree that it is also a valid position to take that it is morally wrong to use the tech?

If you do, then we’re on the same page.

#71365
flemm

flemm
  • Members
  • 5 786 messages

lillitheris wrote...
Well, let’s move away from absolutes: do you agree that it is also a valid position to take that it is morally wrong to use the tech?

If you do, then we’re on the same page.


Sure, I think that's a valid position. But the idea that it should be kept and studied is also valid. Both arguments have weight, which is why both sides have been debated at great length in similar circumstances in the real world when similar issues have arisen.

#71366
MisterJB

MisterJB
  • Members
  • 15 596 messages

lillitheris wrote...
First, you have to account for time. Miranda grows into something she is not in the beginning.

On the topic of Legion in particular, you’re oversimplifying. If we go back to the popular gun analogy, Legion is like studying a revolver whereas the base is like using a club made of the bones of murder victims.

Now, even if the Legion case were much more similar, she could still choose differently later, when her understanding has grown.

Your believable arc is only thus because you assume Miranda is unchangeably amoral.


First, I don't see that much of a different between studying Legion and studying the Base. Both are tools (granted, Legion less so but that was not known at the time) which have been used for murder. And you can retrieve the Reaper IFF and have the crew kidnapped imediatelly afterwards which doesn't leave time for much of a change.

Placing those who are alive over the memory of dead ones is not amorality. And while I recognize Miranda can change in certain aspects, they are mostly reserved to her treatment of Shepard and Cerberus. And neither of these necessarely indicate a change from moral relativity to absolutism.
Stances such as "Sanctuary is wrong" were evidenced in ME2 when Miranda denounces Teltin as a mistake.

Placing sentimentality over eficiency is not a trait of Miranda except if Oriana is involved. It is evidenced only once in ME2 and not once in ME3. She abstained from visiting or contacting Shepard on Earth because of how it might look to the Alliance.
So, I see nothing in ME2 or ME3 that even remotelly supports "Using anything from this base seems like a betrayal." As such, I am confortable with denoucing it as OOC and a case of horrible writing.

#71367
katcrave

katcrave
  • Members
  • 292 messages
Miranda shows sentimentality several times throughout ME2 that do not involve Oriana. If you take her to acquire the reaper IFF, she will make a comment on how the place is 'disconcerting'. On the Collector ship, if she see the pile of experimented bodies, her closing comment is "Is that supposed to make me feel better? Because it didn't".

I think Miranda tries to present herself as more pragmatic than she actually is.

#71368
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages

katcrave wrote...

Miranda shows sentimentality several times throughout ME2 that do not involve Oriana. If you take her to acquire the reaper IFF, she will make a comment on how the place is 'disconcerting'. On the Collector ship, if she see the pile of experimented bodies, her closing comment is "Is that supposed to make me feel better? Because it didn't".

I think Miranda tries to present herself as more pragmatic than she actually is.


Yes! Yes!

To fit in.

Some Weird Sin.

#71369
MisterJB

MisterJB
  • Members
  • 15 596 messages

katcrave wrote...

Miranda shows sentimentality several times throughout ME2 that do not involve Oriana. If you take her to acquire the reaper IFF, she will make a comment on how the place is 'disconcerting'. On the Collector ship, if she see the pile of experimented bodies, her closing comment is "Is that supposed to make me feel better? Because it didn't".

I think Miranda tries to present herself as more pragmatic than she actually is.

She was never overwhelmed by sentimentality, however, which is what we are supposed to believe happens at the CB. The missions always came first.

#71370
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages

MisterJB wrote...

katcrave wrote...

Miranda shows sentimentality several times throughout ME2 that do not involve Oriana. If you take her to acquire the reaper IFF, she will make a comment on how the place is 'disconcerting'. On the Collector ship, if she see the pile of experimented bodies, her closing comment is "Is that supposed to make me feel better? Because it didn't".

I think Miranda tries to present herself as more pragmatic than she actually is.

She was never overwhelmed by sentimentality, however, which is what we are supposed to believe happens at the CB. The missions always came first.


Try again. 

What is it showing you? Those events? What does it tell you about her? Where is the greatest manifestation?

#71371
katcrave

katcrave
  • Members
  • 292 messages
Being 'overwhelmed by sentimentality' is entirely dependent upon the circumstance. Once we've established that, yes, she is capable of feeling emotions and of being sentimental, then its just a matter of finding the threshold of where her emotions will override her pragmatism. A base of liquified humans (she did witness one of the colonist/crew members being processed) might just do the trick. Its certainly within the realm of reason to accept it as such anyway.

edit: typos :D

Modifié par katcrave, 31 août 2012 - 06:13 .


#71372
flemm

flemm
  • Members
  • 5 786 messages

MisterJB wrote...
She was never overwhelmed by sentimentality, however, which is what we are supposed to believe happens at the CB. The missions always came first.


I don't know. She doesn't seem particularly overwhelmed. At all, in fact. Also, the mission was: stop the Collectors, which they are going to do.

It's a decision that can be justified from a purely rational perspective, but here she justifies it from a more emotional perspective.

I don't really see that as an issue. I do understand the issue, but I don't really want Miranda to necessarily be dogmatic and always take the same angle on everything.

Another way of looking at it is that she wants to say "f*ck it, let's blow this up and worry about it later, because it will feel good" which is not really moral, but understandable Posted Image

Modifié par flemm, 31 août 2012 - 06:16 .


#71373
MisterJB

MisterJB
  • Members
  • 15 596 messages
Taboo:Stop acting as if you're the ultimate authority in Miranda Lawson and everyone who disagrees with you simple students.
Either make an argument or shut up.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 août 2012 - 06:15 .


#71374
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages

katcrave wrote...

Being 'overwhelmed by sentimentality' is entirely dependent upon the circumstance. Once we've established that, yes, she is capable of feeling emotions and of being sentimental, then its just a matter of finding the threshold of where her emotions will override her pragmatism. A base of liquified humans (she did witness one of the colonist/crew members being processed) might just do the trick. Its certainly within the realm of reason to accept it as such anyway.

edit: typos :D


Posted Image

#71375
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 358 messages

Skullheart wrote...

Killing a husk, is murder?

The reapers aren't civilizations anymore, they are like giant husks, puppets of the catalyst. The previous civilizations died when the catalyst harvested them. We are honouring the previous species destroying the reapers.

The only bad thing about destroy is the death of the geth, nothing more.

That's not really a bad thing