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[wright1978]

krukow wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
.It's reasonable to use the base, there are several valid reasons to do it, mostly having to do with efficiency, destroying the base however is a moral argument, not a strategic or logical one

Even though I think it's wrong, yes, there are several valid reasons to use it.

That doesn't matter.  If you were there, you would not care about game theory or strategy.  That's not how the human mind reacts to in person atrocity.  It just isn't.

Also, what's with the periods at the begining of your sentences?  Just curious is all...

Not all human beings react in the same way to atrocity.

[flemm]

krukow wrote...
Not when you're standing in the middle of it.  Two systems removed where it's all statistical data (or on a forum discussing things that are really just long strings of 1s and 0s), it's apparently a debate.

Well, I think there is another distinction to be made.

Certainly, anyone would be horrified by seeing that type of situation. Would it still be possible to make a tactical choice to preserve what is there so that its use or non-use can be arbitrated later (by superior officers, or civilian authorities, some type of court, etc.)?

Yes, I'm sure if you look at similar situations from history, people have been horrified, but made that type of tactical choice.

However, a final decision has to be made *right then* in this case. That is somewhat "gamey," but whatever. Anyway, Miranda makes more of a "gut" reflex type of decision. She doesn't seem overwhelmed at all, actually. It's just a different type of call than she often makes.

[Steelcan]

wright1978 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's reasonable to use the base, there are several valid reasons to do it, mostly having to do with efficiency, destroying the base however is a moral argument, not a strategic or logical one

Destroying the base to keep it out of TIM hands is a strategic one.

. You have no reason not to trust TIM in the context of the decision

You have multiple reasons for not trusting TIM based on your experience of him in the game.

. But no reason to think he isn't acting out of  humanity's interest

[hot_heart]

flemm wrote...
Anyway, Miranda makes more of a "gut" reflex type of decision. She doesn't seem overwhelmed at all, actually. It's just a different type of call than she often makes.

She doesn't even state it definitively either. Not like Shepard. "I'm not so sure. Seeing it first-hand, using anything from this base seems like a betrayal."

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...
She doesn't even state it definitively either.

Well, she's considering the situation from a different point of view. The whole point of this was to "fight for the lost" after all. Ultimately, I think it is good that Miranda can consider that point of view. Not at the expense of her ability to be pragmatic, but as part of the character, I think it is good.

[krukow]

hot_heart wrote...

flemm wrote...
Anyway, Miranda makes more of a "gut" reflex type of decision. She doesn't seem overwhelmed at all, actually. It's just a different type of call than she often makes.

She doesn't even state it definitively either. Not like Shepard. "I'm not so sure. Seeing it first-hand, using anything from this base seems like a betrayal."

She's reacting on a visceral level.

Which is what a normal human being would do.

[lillitheris]

krukow wrote...

Not when you're standing in the middle of it.  Two systems removed where it's all statistical data (or on a forum discussing things that are really just long strings of 1s and 0s), it's apparently a debate.

It's not a debate when you're ankle deep in the dead.

It's just not.  Human being don't work that way.

edit: No you wouldn't steelcan.  Not if you were there.  You can only say that because we're discussing a video game.

You’re wrong.

Animals act purely on instinct and whatever emotion they possess.
Robots act purely on logic.

Humans are somewhere inbetween. That is how humans work. And, amazingly, they all are a little different!

[MisterJB]

katcrave wrote...
It is about the circumstance. She is in the CB. She had just witnessed the death of civillians. It was all recent and in her mind. The Geth having killed millions is a statistic that she has had time to rationalize and come to terms with. I'm not arguing that Miranda does not make rational, pragmatic decisions at all. I'm merely saying that she is human. And that sometimes, despite our best efforts, our emotions get the better of us.

As for breaking Shepherd out of the Alliance, I'm not sure that is very morally significant. She know he's not being tortured and i'm under the impression that she would have done something had she felt his incarceration would have been permanent. Forgive me for asking but what research from Sanctuary does she hand over? I know she gives the tracer on Kai Leng but I'm not recalling any mention of research...

She saw one person being liquified. One.
I'm sure that's an awful thing to see but it's still one person. The rest are as much statistic as any death caused by the geth.
Another good example, Miranda defended work on the Husks because they were already dead which is a quite similar criteria she used in the CB, except she reached a completely different conclusion. Now, you could make the claim it's character development but then I would have to ask where is any evidence of this character development. We can see her beginning to distrust Cerberus but that is not associated with morality, only with her growing realization TIM doesn't care about his people. This is, in fact, countered in ME3 when...
Shepard said to upload all data from the main computer at Sanctuary which will include any remaining data. Also, Hackett's dialogue suggests they retrieved useful information. While
Miranda does not actually hand over any data, she is in the room while
Shepard is uploading and she doesn't raise any objections.

So, Legion, the Husks, Sanctuary, all three situations where the previous murders caused by a particular piece of technology doesn't stop Miranda from using that technology for the greater good. One of these examples even happen after the CB.

A fourth, less optimal, example. Shepard on Earth. She knew that he wasn't being tortured but he is still her boyfriend and she wants to see him. It's a sentimental wish much like wanting to honor the dead is 100% sentimental (not that sentimental equals wrong, mind you). But in this situation, Miranda also picked the most efficient and safe option. Not visit Shepard.

This paints a very convicing picture of Miranda as someone who is quite capable of sentiments but doesn't let herself be controlled by them. However, in the CB, that is preciselly what happens.
Everything before and even after that completely contradicts that single moment which stands alone. Thus, it goes completely against Miranda's character. You can say that people might act out of character under extenuating circunstances and that is definitely something worth considering. It is still, however, enormously out of character.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 août 2012 - 07:07 .

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...

Humans are somewhere inbetween. That is how humans work. And, amazingly, they all are a little different!

Agreed

[jtav]

flemm wrote...

hot_heart wrote...
She doesn't even state it definitively either.

Well, she's considering the situation from a different point of view. The whole point of this was to "fight for the lost" after all. Ultimately, I think it is good that Miranda can consider that point of view. Not at the expense of her ability to be pragmatic, but as part of the character, I think it is good.

As long as we're being creative...

...In ME3, we learn that TIM's goal in ME2 was the acquisition of Collector tech. What if Miranda initially regarded saving the colonists as a secondary objective, but the manner of death she witnesses horrifies her and her conscience is pricked. TIM continues to rave about potential and she realizes someone so cavalier about what happened is not who should have the base.

[wright1978]

Steelcan wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It's reasonable to use the base, there are several valid reasons to do it, mostly having to do with efficiency, destroying the base however is a moral argument, not a strategic or logical one

Destroying the base to keep it out of TIM hands is a strategic one.

. You have no reason not to trust TIM in the context of the decision

You have multiple reasons for not trusting TIM based on your experience of him in the game.

. But no reason to think he isn't acting out of  humanity's interest

I accept he thinks he is acting in humanity's interest, However if i don't trust him or his judgement on what serves humanity's interest, let alone the galactic community's interest then it is a perfectly sound strategic decision to destroy thebase.

Really should get back to talking about Miranda though

Modifié par wright1978, 31 août 2012 - 07:11 .

[katcrave]

MisterJB wrote...

katcrave wrote...
It is about the circumstance. She is in the CB. She had just witnessed the death of civillians. It was all recent and in her mind. The Geth having killed millions is a statistic that she has had time to rationalize and come to terms with. I'm not arguing that Miranda does not make rational, pragmatic decisions at all. I'm merely saying that she is human. And that sometimes, despite our best efforts, our emotions get the better of us.

As for breaking Shepherd out of the Alliance, I'm not sure that is very morally significant. She know he's not being tortured and i'm under the impression that she would have done something had she felt his incarceration would have been permanent. Forgive me for asking but what research from Sanctuary does she hand over? I know she gives the tracer on Kai Leng but I'm not recalling any mention of research...

She saw one person being liquified. One.
I'm sure that's an awful thing to see but it's still one person. The rest are as much statistic as any death caused by the geth.
Another good example, Miranda defended work on the Husks because they were already dead which is a quite similar criteria she used in the CB, except she reached a completely different conclusion. Now, you could make the claim it's character development but then I would have to ask where is any evidence of this character development. We can see her beginning to distrust Cerberus but that is not associated with morality, only with her growing realization TIM doesn't care about his people. This is, in fact, countered in ME3 when...
Shepard said to upload all data from the main computer at Sanctuary which will include any remaining data. Also, Hackett's dialogue suggests they retrieved useful information. While
Miranda does not actually hand over any data, she is in the room while
Shepard is uploading and she doesn't raise any objections.

So, Legion, the Husks, Sanctuary, all three situations where the previous murders caused by a particular piece of technology doesn't stop Miranda from using that technology for the greater good. One of these examples even happen after the CB.

A fourth, less optimal, example. Shepard on Earth. She knew that he wasn't being tortured but he is still her boyfriend and she wants to see him. It's a sentimental wish much like wanting to honor the dead is 100% sentimental (not that sentimental equals wrong, mind you). But in this situation, Miranda also picked the most efficient and safe option. Not visit Shepard.

This paints a very convicing picture of Miranda as someone who is quite capable of sentiments but doesn't let herself be controlled by them. However, in the CB, that is preciselly what happens.
Everything before and even after that completely contradicts that single moment which stands alone. Thus, it goes completely against Miranda's character. You can say that people might act out of character under extenuating circunstances and that is definitely something worth considering. It is still, however, enormously out of character.

Again, I will point out that while she defends research on the husks, we have no reason to believe that she was the one performing it. Or that she saw these humans being turned into husks. She is distanced from those experiments.

"We can see her beginning to distrust Cerberus but that is not
associated with morality, only with her growing realization TIM doesn't
care about his people." Not caring about your people is a matter of morality. In fact, I cannot think of a clearer example than that. She is deciding that his actions towards his people are wrong. The Illusive man lies to them about the Collector Ship being disabled by a Turain ship. EDI discovers this and informs the crew. If Shepherd chooses this renegade response, Miranda says "He wouldn't do that....he just wouldn't" Lying to them about that base is perfectly pragmatic. But she is directly involved in that situation and her emotions override her rationality.

While I agree, it is not her 'normal' or preffered response, I still feel it is within character. Humans are walking, talking contradicitons. At least I am  

[Taboo]

It isn't derailement to some of us. It's derailment to your head canon. The thing is is that it depends on how much merit you assign each trait and fact in head canon.

We don't have a choice but to go along with it even if we don't agree with it. The endings work the same way. I'm stuck with it. You're stuck with it.

She wanted to fit in and thought she did. That changed. She makes her own decisions and sometimes they function of emotions instead of logic. She will always be a pragmatist, but it won't be with Cerberus.

It works the same way with the Reapers. They aren't as cold and mysterious as you once thought they were.

She's human. Wants to fit in. Wants a family. Loves her sister. Loves Shepard. Those traits define her just as much as her logic does. Especially now.

Without those she might as well be a robot. And that would be the ultimate insult. The ultimate abandonment of theme.

[MisterJB]

katcrave wrote...
Again, I will point out that while she defends research on the husks, we have no reason to believe that she was the one performing it. Or that she saw these humans being turned into husks. She is distanced from those experiments.


"We can see her beginning to distrust Cerberus but that is not
associated with morality, only with her growing realization TIM doesn't
care about his people." Not caring about your people is a matter of morality. In fact, I cannot think of a clearer example than that. She is deciding that his actions towards his people are wrong. The Illusive man lies to them about the Collector Ship being disabled by a Turain ship. EDI discovers this and informs the crew. If Shepherd chooses this renegade response, Miranda says "He wouldn't do that....he just wouldn't" Lying to them about that base is perfectly pragmatic. But she is directly involved in that situation and her emotions override her rationality.

While I agree, it is not her 'normal' or preffered response, I still feel it is within character. Humans are walking, talking contradicitons. At least I am  

Miranda would not completely change her stance on something based on the death of a single person. She is a Cell leader in Cerberus, she deals with death daily.

But Miranda did not mention TIM in her argument defending the destruction of the base. Her resignation and her opinion regarding the fate of the Collector Base are two entirely different fields with differing reasons leading to each.
Her growing distrust of TIM leads to her resignation. That could be considered a gradual character developmet that made sense. Her wish to destroy the Base based on a moral absolutism comes out of nowhere and goes against everything she used to stand for.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

flemm wrote...

hot_heart wrote...
She doesn't even state it definitively either.

Well, she's considering the situation from a different point of view. The whole point of this was to "fight for the lost" after all. Ultimately, I think it is good that Miranda can consider that point of view. Not at the expense of her ability to be pragmatic, but as part of the character, I think it is good.

As long as we're being creative...

...In ME3, we learn that TIM's goal in ME2 was the acquisition of Collector tech. What if Miranda initially regarded saving the colonists as a secondary objective, but the manner of death she witnesses horrifies her and her conscience is pricked. TIM continues to rave about potential and she realizes someone so cavalier about what happened is not who should have the base.

That would be an interesting twist. Unfortunately, it still does not justify what she says.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Miranda would not completely change her stance on something based on the death of a single person. She is a Cell leader in Cerberus, she deals with death daily.

She is the leader of the least zealous cell. She was assigned to Shepard because she isn't Kai Leng. That's why Jacob is there as well. Familiar faces.

Her growing distrust of TIM leads to her resignation. That could be considered a gradual character developmet that made sense. Her wish to destroy the Base based on a moral absolutism comes out of nowhere and goes against everything she used to stand for.

Her reaction to her sister seems pretty emotional to me. Going so far as to say "rescued" instead of kidnapped. Which it was.

Please note that she has continually adressed a point that you aren't. She is directly involved with the CB. She is not involved with the husks or the Geth atrocities. Things are very easy to see as grey right up until they involve you. Once it involves you directly things become much more difficult.

When it's you facing the loaded gun it's all a bit different. You've never addresed this and I've pressed you about it multiple times.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 31 août 2012 - 07:48 .

[hot_heart]

You know if you keep the base, she says the following:
"Before we started this mission, I never would've questioned our goals...I just hope we made the right choice. I hope whatever Cerberus finds at that base is worth it."

Just in case you wanted some clarity on there being an intended arc with this. I understand if you don't feel the rest of the game presents the change that well, but then maybe it's not the problem with just that one line.

Modifié par hot_heart, 31 août 2012 - 07:59 .

[Taboo]

It's all how you see things. Interpretations.

I see her saying it. Others do not. The character arc went one way, people are angry. Entirely understandable.

Here's a picture, seeing as we haven't had one in some time.

[jtav]

Here's what I think happened:

Someone, either Walters or Hudson, felt very strongly that the base was an abomination that should be destroyed on principle. They give Miranda her lines to sell that--if the Loyalist thinks it's evil, it must be. Virtually none of the fanbase takes it that way and the debate that rages is over whether handing it over to TIM is justified. The writers notice. Shepard's motivation for destroying the base is now mistrusting TIMs. Miranda's lines are ignored.

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

Here's what I think happened:

Someone, either Walters or Hudson, felt very strongly that the base was an abomination that should be destroyed on principle. They give Miranda her lines to sell that--if the Loyalist thinks it's evil, it must be. Virtually none of the fanbase takes it that way and the debate that rages is over whether handing it over to TIM is justified. The writers notice. Shepard's motivation for destroying the base is now mistrusting TIMs. Miranda's lines are ignored.

It doesn't really matter in the end to be honest. He still gets the tech regardless of what you do with the base.

All it really does is change what ending you get if you have a REALLY low EMS.

Weekes didn't write those lines. Walters did. That's crit path Miranda. Had it been Weekes I would venture to guess it would have made it look like she didn't trust TIM.

I don't see her having an emotional reaction as being OOC. But I do see some very sloppy word choice.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Here's what I think happened:

Someone, either Walters or Hudson, felt very strongly that the base was an abomination that should be destroyed on principle. They give Miranda her lines to sell that--if the Loyalist thinks it's evil, it must be. Virtually none of the fanbase takes it that way and the debate that rages is over whether handing it over to TIM is justified. The writers notice. Shepard's motivation for destroying the base is now mistrusting TIMs. Miranda's lines are ignored.

I think that is very plausible. I recall all the passionate debates about the base over the last last two years. Virtually no one of the base-destroyers used the argumentation that the base should be destroyed because of what was done there. Actually, I can't recall even a single post arguing that. They all argued with tangible risks: what TIM might do with it, that it may be too dangerous, that it could backfire and indoctrinate everyone. Even the most incoherent rants rather took the form of "Cerberus is evil! Evil, I tell you. Giving them the base is wrong."

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 08:16 .

[Taboo]

This kind of went downhill once Auschwitz came into the picture. Probably best to leave those concepts out of the equation.

It's an ugly affair. Being there myself (not THERE but visiting) all I could really wonder is how we got into that situation in the first place. It must stand as a testament to the atrocities that were commited there.

I don't trust TIM with the base. That's why I blow it up. Whether Miranda's statement is OOC is open to interpretation.

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

jtav wrote...

Here's what I think happened:
Someone, either Walters or Hudson, felt very strongly that the base was an abomination that should be destroyed on principle. They give Miranda her lines to sell that--if the Loyalist thinks it's evil, it must be. Virtually none of the fanbase takes it that way and the debate that rages is over whether handing it over to TIM is justified. The writers notice. Shepard's motivation for destroying the base is now mistrusting TIMs. Miranda's lines are ignored.

It doesn't really matter in the end to be honest. He still gets the tech regardless of what you do with the base.
All it really does is change what ending you get if you have a REALLY low EMS.
Weekes didn't write those lines. Walters did. That's crit path Miranda. Had it been Weekes I would venture to guess it would have made it look like she didn't trust TIM.

I don't see her having an emotional reaction as being OOC. But I do see some very sloppy word choice

agreed

[lillitheris]

jtav wrote...

Here's what I think happened:

Someone, either Walters or Hudson, felt very strongly that the base was an abomination that should be destroyed on principle. They give Miranda her lines to sell that--if the Loyalist thinks it's evil, it must be. Virtually none of the fanbase takes it that way and the debate that rages is over whether handing it over to TIM is justified. The writers notice. Shepard's motivation for destroying the base is now mistrusting TIMs. Miranda's lines are ignored.

You’re reaching.

[hot_heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Virtually no one of the base-destroyers used the argumentation that the base should be destroyed because of what was done there.

Yes, but there's a difference between discussing something on a forum and being a particular character in a story at a particular moment.

I don't disagree that there could be benefits to keeping the base, but I'm playing Shepard, not Miranda.