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[Ghost]

HELLO WORLD!

[Ghost]

Who thinks Miranda should die in ME3 like Thane?

[Ieldra]

hot_heart wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Virtually no one of the base-destroyers used the argumentation that the base should be destroyed because of what was done there.

Yes, but there's a difference between discussing something on a forum and being a particular character in a story at a particular moment.

I don't disagree that there could be benefits to keeping the base, but I'm playing Shepard, not Miranda.

I said this in response to jtav, who speculated that the writers may have changed the implied reason of Miranda to recommend destroying the base based on fan responses, since that kind of line never appears elsewhere. If that's true, the lack of arguments from notions of the sacred in the CB debates might be significant.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 08:44 .

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Her reaction to her sister seems pretty emotional to me. Going so far as to say "rescued" instead of kidnapped. Which it was.

Please note that she has continually adressed a point that you aren't. She is directly involved with the CB. She is not involved with the husks or the Geth atrocities. Things are very easy to see as grey right up until they involve you. Once it involves you directly things become much more difficult.

When it's you facing the loaded gun it's all a bit different. You've never addresed this and I've pressed you about it multiple times.

Oriana is always the exception.

I have, in fact, adressed that point. She saw one person being liquified. One single person.
She is not going to change ehr entire moral outlook based on the death of a single person, regardless of how horrific it is. She saw many more people dying first hand in Sanctuary and she was still not against keeping the data.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 août 2012 - 08:43 .

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...
The writers notice. Shepard's motivation for destroying the base is now mistrusting TIMs. Miranda's lines are ignored.

For some reason, I still got Shepard claiming he destroyed the Base because of the people who died there.
Sucks.

[hot_heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I said this in response to jtav, who speculated that the writers may have changed the implied reason of Miranda to recommend destroying the base based on fan responses, since that kind of line never appears elsewhere. If that's true, the lack of arguments from notions of the sacred in the CB debates might be significant.

Oh, I see. The 'past two years' thing threw me.

[jtav]

Funny. My Paragons say it was because they didn't trust TIM. Now I'm curious.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

jtav wrote...
The writers notice. Shepard's motivation for destroying the base is now mistrusting TIMs. Miranda's lines are ignored.

For some reason, I still got Shepard claiming he destroyed the Base because of the people who died there.
Sucks.

You did? Where does he say that?

(I only have one ME2 Shepard who destroyed the base, and she's got the lowest import priority since it's my "for science" run)

jtav wrote...
Funny. My Paragons say it was because they didn't trust TIM. Now I'm curious.

There appears to be some demand for research.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 08:48 .

[hot_heart]

Exchange here. The player may mistrust TIM, but Shepard never voices it that way.

[Ghost]

Synthesis supporters check out my thread!

[Ieldra]

hot_heart wrote...
Exchange here. The player may mistrust TIM, but Shepard never voices it that way.

I think they're talking about ME3. In ME2, things are slightly different depending on whether your trigger the expanded exchange with TIM. If you don't use the Paragon line in the first conversation node, it never happens and Miranda doesn't say her line. IMO Shepard alway says it isn't worth it, but if you don't trigger the expanded version, you also won't get the dreadful "I won't let fear let compromise who I am" line. There are really several reasons never to trigger the expanded version, regardless of whether you keep the base or destroy it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 08:54 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

jtav wrote...
The writers notice. Shepard's motivation for destroying the base is now mistrusting TIMs. Miranda's lines are ignored.

For some reason, I still got Shepard claiming he destroyed the Base because of the people who died there.
Sucks.

You did? Where does he say that?

(I only have one ME2 Shepard who destroyed the base, and she's got the lowest import priority since it's my "for science" run)

jtav wrote...
Funny. My Paragons say it was because they didn't trust TIM. Now I'm curious.

There appears to be some demand for research.

During the conversation on Mars. I can't recal exactly what he says but I'm certain he does say that. It was quite distressing.

[jtav]

Yes, ME3. In the conversation on Mars, my ParaSheps usually say the blew up the base because they don't trust TIM.

[hot_heart]

MisterJB wrote...
She saw many more people dying first hand in Sanctuary and she was still not against keeping the data.

Sorry, excuse my ignorance but where do we learn they kept data from Sanctuary?

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

I have, in fact, adressed that point. She saw one person being liquified. One single person.
She is not going to change ehr entire moral outlook based on the death of a single person, regardless of how horrific it is. She saw many more people dying first hand in Sanctuary and she was still not against keeping the data.

You’re reducing to the absurd. Being there, surrounded by all of the pods, knowing what happened…it’s so not ‘just one single person’. It’s something inconceivable.

(And, like I said, I don’t think most here have even seen that one violent death.)

You’re also clinging to the notion that this is the moment of change, that there is nothing before and it all happens suddenly. That’s not the case; you can see it if you play through again.

Lastly, you shouldn’t drag ME3 into this discussion, it’s got nothing to do with it. ME2 is one unit, ME3 is a different one, with different goals, different writers…

[Ieldra]

hot_heart wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
She saw many more people dying first hand in Sanctuary and she was still not against keeping the data.

Sorry, excuse my ignorance but where do we learn they kept data from Sanctuary?

Shepards orders the squad to copy everything on Sanctuary's computers in Miranda's presence.

[hot_heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Shepards orders the squad to copy everything on Sanctuary's computers in Miranda's presence.

That's so they can track Kai Leng/Cerberus, not use the research data in the Crucible or anything like that.

[krukow]

hot_heart wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Shepards orders the squad to copy everything on Sanctuary's computers in Miranda's presence.

That's so they can track Kai Leng/Cerberus, not use the research data in the Crucible or anything like that.

Meh, just use it.  Those people are dead.

SUNK.  COST.

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
You’re reducing to the absurd. Being there, surrounded by all of the pods, knowing what happened…it’s so not ‘just one single person’. It’s something inconceivable.

(And, like I said, I don’t think most here have even seen that one violent death.)

You’re also clinging to the notion that this is the moment of change, that there is nothing before and it all happens suddenly. That’s not the case; you can see it if you play through again.

Lastly, you shouldn’t drag ME3 into this discussion, it’s got nothing to do with it. ME2 is one unit, ME3 is a different one, with different goals, different writers…

Miranda is more than capable of killing people in cold blood. She might be upset by death but just because one is particularly violent, it's not going to change her outlook.

And there is not moment of change. We can see her change her attitude towards Shepard, we can (barely) see a growing distrust tiwards TIM but there is not a single hint of Miranda changing her morality. Against that, we have two separate occasions where she clearly defends the pursuit of knowledge, even if it comes from less than savory sources. Husks and Legion.
Her attitudes on the CB is a direct contradiction of this without even the slightest hint of development leading towards it.

And I refer to ME3 because it shows how truly alone that moment is. Before the CB, Miranda places results before emotions. After the CB she continues to place results before emotions.

[Ieldra]

hot_heart wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Shepards orders the squad to copy everything on Sanctuary's computers in Miranda's presence.

That's so they can track Kai Leng/Cerberus, not use the research data in the Crucible or anything like that.

Maybe. Still they copied everything. No talk of destroying the research.

BTW, in my first game, I got the line from Hackett "Maybe the Illusive Man is onto something" somewhere when TIM's plans to control the Reapers were mentioned. I never got it again in another game. Does anyone know how to trigger that line?

[MisterJB]

hot_heart wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Shepards orders the squad to copy everything on Sanctuary's computers in Miranda's presence.

That's so they can track Kai Leng/Cerberus, not use the research data in the Crucible or anything like that.

Hackett later claims the data was useful, even if it came at an high price.
See, even Hackett realizes that you can't complain a weapon is dirty. You just use it.

[krukow]

MisterJB wrote...

hot_heart wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Shepards orders the squad to copy everything on Sanctuary's computers in Miranda's presence.

That's so they can track Kai Leng/Cerberus, not use the research data in the Crucible or anything like that.

Hackett later claims the data was useful, even if it came at an high price.
See, even Hackett realizes that you can't complain a weapon is dirty. You just use it.

Agreed.  I only wish we'd known about Sanctuary earlier.  We could have funnelled more people there.

THINK HOW MUCH MORE WE COULD HAVE LEARNED!

[hot_heart]

MisterJB wrote...
Hackett later claims the data was useful, even if it came at an high price.
See, even Hackett realizes that you can't complain a weapon is dirty. You just use it.

Useful for what? It certainly doesn't become a war asset.

[Ieldra]

Hmm...I'm just observing there is more activity here than in the Tali thread. I can't believe we are more obsessive than the Talimancers.



@krukow:
Stop misrepresenting arguments you don't agree with. Nobody here supports more atrocities or thinks Miranda should do so. It's just you who fallaciously makes that connection to revile arguments you can't refute by actual logic, and I'll call you out on your dishonest rhetoric every single time.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 août 2012 - 09:25 .

[MisterJB]

krukow wrote...
Agreed.  I only wish we'd known about Sanctuary earlier.  We could have funnelled more people there.

THINK HOW MUCH MORE WE COULD HAVE LEARNED!

Because it's better to let those deaths go to waste?

Besides, you could make a very strong case a few hundreds of Reapers is well worth a few billions of humans.