82210 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The character that people were discussing here for two years was not the one Bioware saw. I'm not suprised people got angry.

I saw the character that way from the beginning. Her screentime simply makes her unbalanced.

I don't have a problem with the direction her character design took in ME3 (The more sympathetic big sister), I just find fault with the amount of effort that went into the portrayal, as well as the amount of effort that went into her overall character in ME3.

For being one of the more important characters in ME2 (indeed, the entire reason ME2 and 3 are even possible) and the female poster character for ME2, it seems like they just stopped giving a s**t, and Shepard's interaction with Miranda seems reflectant of that.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I still haven't heard anyone saying that....

This was a source of conflict at least two days ago. This has also been a source of conflict since I got here. I remember things people say here.

Would you like me to start writing things down? If that'll help I can do it.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Taboo:
Did someone actually say that? I have a hard time understanding things.

Yes he did write it with guidance from Weekes

That basically means nothing. Weekes' influence is very visible in the first conversation. After that, the balance was lost.

Your statement that the Miranda we see - the unbalanced one - is what they wanted is a very free interpretation of what was said.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:38 .

[o Ventus]

On the livestream, has JayW actually started talking about his writing yet? All I've seen so far from him was his introduction, then he just sort of stopped talking.

[Vertigo_1]

^Not yet, all he said regarding writing was that he wrote Miranda, Grunt and Ashley and that he was "handed" these character to write

Anyway: Leviathan DLC survey!
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13953226#13953226

EDIT: They are talking to him now

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:40 .

[Ieldra]

o Ventus wrote...
On the livestream, has JayW actually started talking about his writing yet? All I've seen so far from him was his introduction, then he just sort of stopped talking.

Nothing as yet.

[jtav]

I find fault with the fact that she has been written as a sexist stereotype since LOTSB when she wasn't before. That it happened to a character I liked just made it worse.

[Stalker]

I always saw her like BioWare saw her (caring soft person just hiding behind her work etc.), but I am still mad how bad it was portrayed in the game. Just because she laid off this icecold layer, doesn't mean she shouldn't have anything left to say about it.

The transition is just too sudden: Imagine if you never talked her down in ME2, you suddenly drop into ME3 and she is all over her sister. She doesn't even mention Cerberus once: It's like you are going to her with anticipation to say "Cerberus got all evil and is now trying to take over the world!  We have to take them down!" and she just responds with "Well, I haven't received a call from my sister last evening. Can you believe that? omg". That's just sad.

There was just closure to her personal side, but not to the other 50% that should still be present. Her character was okay in ME3, she just needed more screentime to close both arcs.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:51 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I find fault with the fact that she has been written as a sexist stereotype since LOTSB when she wasn't before. That it happened to a character I liked just made it worse.

Indeed. But as opposed to what Taboo said, there is no indication that this was intended from the start and that the balance of the character wasn't lost in writing. Yes, they wanted a Miranda who connects more to people, and that's perfectly ok. But she doesn't need to lose what made her awesome over that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:49 .

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That basically means nothing. Weekes' influence is very visible in the first conversation. After that, the balance was lost.

To you. 

At the end of the day she wanted to fit in. She thought Cerberus did that. Turns out it did for a time but she realized before it was too late that it was no longer the organization she thought it was.

She questions her past actions in ME3 because she realizes they were not flawless as she thought they were. She second guesses implanting a control chip in her lovers head. She confronts her own hypocrisy. That's something she didn't do in Cerberus. She's free to make her own decisions now. She'll always have ideals but she'll never be as grim as people want her to be in here. She needed more dialouge about Cerberus and about her past.

At the end of the day Miranda will never be anything but an emodiment of the outside looking in. That's established in ME3. Some Weird Sin.

And maybe, just maybe Shepard can help her.

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

I find fault with the fact that she has been written as a sexist stereotype since LOTSB when she wasn't before. That it happened to a character I liked just made it worse.

Since LotSB? Have you seen the way she dresses? Do you know what the Male Gaze is?

She wanted things that ordinary people want. Just because you don't want them doesn't mean she can't have them. We discussed this in the past jtav. They have basic wants and desires. That's what makes them three dimensional. She wants a family. She wants to fit in.

This is a problem on your end not hers.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
She questions her past actions in ME3 because she realizes they were not flawless as she thought they were. She second guesses implanting a control chip in her lovers head. She confronts her own hypocrisy. That's something she didn't do in Cerberus. She's free to make her own decisions now. She'll always have ideals but she'll never be as grim as people want her to be in here. She needed more dialouge about Cerberus and about her past

The thing is, I don't see her ideals in ME3. Apart from not reflecting about Cerberus, her contribution to the big picture is accidental, an adjunct to saving Oriana. It's actually a rather subtle flaw that had drastic consequences, that's why I don't think her losing her ideals was intended. We got the e-mail and the datapad messages as evidence.

Edit:
And Taboo, I'd appreciate if you were less condescending. Stop talking as if ex cathedra. It gets annoying.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[shepskisaac]

Ieldra2 wrote...

And Taboo, I'd appreciate if you were less condescending. Stop talking as if ex cathedra. It gets annoying.

Ain't like anyone else is less condescending. We're all expressing our opinions and defending them.

[o Ventus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Edit:
And Taboo, I'd appreciate if you were less condescending. Stop talking as if ex cathedra. It gets annoying.

You say this like you, or jtav, or JB, or anyone else isn't condescending.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
She questions her past actions in ME3 because she realizes they were not flawless as she thought they were. She second guesses implanting a control chip in her lovers head. She confronts her own hypocrisy. That's something she didn't do in Cerberus. She's free to make her own decisions now. She'll always have ideals but she'll never be as grim as people want her to be in here. She needed more dialouge about Cerberus and about her past

The thing is, I don't see her ideals in ME3. Apart from not reflecting about Cerberus, her contribution to the big picture is accidental, an adjunct to saving Oriana. It's actually a rather subtle flaw that had drastic consequences, that's why I don't think her losing her ideals was intended.

She doesn't lose them Ieldra. That's the thing. The difference is now she thinks. Was that the right thing to do? She will still form an STG like group with Shepard after the war but it won't be the same as before. It will start over.

When you no longer consider multiple options your logic becomes dangerous. There may be a better way than harsh pragmatism. There may not.

Best. Solution.

The difference is now she realizes that.

[Vertigo_1]

So I think I heard Jay say that time changes characters and sometimes they can't be what you wanted them to be.
6 months between ME2 and 3 vs 20 years working at Cerberus and only a few lines on that...

No Jay I don't buy that.

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:03 .

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

She wanted things that ordinary people want. Just because you don't want them doesn't mean she can't have
them. We discussed this in the past jtav. They have basic wants and desires. That's what makes them three dimensional. She wants a family. She wants to fit in.

I remember discussing this. And, as we've discussed previously, that isn't what makes it a sexist stereotype.

What makes it a sexist stereotype is the fact that, for example, the desire for a family is portrayed as replacing her other interests and concerns, and that this is a positive thing, because her having a professional focus was bad, and changing over to exclusively wanting a family is good.

Everybody knows that this would be a sexist stereotype. Which is why, immediately, people tend to say: well, that's not really happening, Miranda just doesn't have enough content, etc.

Which may be true, in a sense, but it is still problematic until there is more content. If eventually there is more content of the appropriate kind, then the issue will be resolved.

Modifié par flemm, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:03 .

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...


Edit:
And Taboo, I'd appreciate if you were less condescending. Stop talking as if ex cathedra. It gets annoying.

Please stop assigning that meaning to my posts. I simply believe in defending my opinion as strongly as possible.

[lillitheris]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

So I think I heard Jay say that time changes characters and sometimes they can't be what you wanted them to be.
6 months between ME2 and 3 vs 20 years working at Cerberus and only a few lines on that...

No Jay I don't buy that.

N amounts of time without anything challenging your views vs. M amounts of time with something and/or someone significant challenging your views.

[hot_heart]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

So I think I heard Jay say that time changes characters and sometimes they can't be what you wanted them to be.
6 months between ME2 and 3 vs 20 years working at Cerberus and only a few lines on that...

No Jay I don't buy that.

Yeah, but he did say that's the tricky part to capture. Plus, a character like Miranda has undergone a pretty major upheaval.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
She questions her past actions in ME3 because she realizes they were not flawless as she thought they were. She second guesses implanting a control chip in her lovers head. She confronts her own hypocrisy. That's something she didn't do in Cerberus. She's free to make her own decisions now. She'll always have ideals but she'll never be as grim as people want her to be in here. She needed more dialouge about Cerberus and about her past

The thing is, I don't see her ideals in ME3. Apart from not reflecting about Cerberus, her contribution to the big picture is accidental, an adjunct to saving Oriana. It's actually a rather subtle flaw that had drastic consequences, that's why I don't think her losing her ideals was intended.

She doesn't lose them Ieldra. That's the thing. The difference is now she thinks. Was that the right thing to do? She will still form an STG like group with Shepard after the war but it won't be the same as before. It will start over.

If you take the evidence of ME3's writing, she does appear to lose them. We can always say they're still there below the surface, and that's plausible given Miranda's story, but there is no evidence of it in the game. At the very least, the writers thought that aspect of Miranda unimportant enough to completely ignore it.

That's why I say the balance was lost. It's not that she wants more "normal" things now, it's that she isn't shown to want anything else any more. That's the sexist stereotype.

[o Ventus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If you take the evidence of ME3's writing, she does appear to lose them. We can always say they're still there below the surface, and that's plausible given Miranda's story, but there is no evidence of it in the game. At the very least, the writers thought that aspect of Miranda unimportant enough to completely ignore it.

That's why I say the balance was lost. It's not that she wants more "normal" things now, it's that she isn't shown to want anything else any more. That's the sexist stereotype.

Liara's SB letter.

They aren't absent, they just aren't present with any meaningful context.

If that makes sense.

Rather, they are present, it's just hollow and not apparent at face value. It's bad writing when you find character traits about someone from a 3rd party source. 

Modifié par o Ventus, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[Ieldra]

hot_heart wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

So I think I heard Jay say that time changes characters and sometimes they can't be what you wanted them to be.
6 months between ME2 and 3 vs 20 years working at Cerberus and only a few lines on that...

No Jay I don't buy that.

Yeah, but he did say that's the tricky part to capture. Plus, a character like Miranda has undergone a pretty major upheaval.

Indeed. Jay got the tricky part wrong. As I said, the impression that Miranda cares only about Oriana is the result of a subtle flaw. Her independence and competence are undoubtedly intact, all we needed was an action she took that was about the big picture without being an adjunt to the Oriana story arc. Even being told about it would have worked. That's why the e-mail worked, and the epilogue slides.

It just wasn't enough to restore the balance.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:14 .

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

They aren't absent, they just aren't present with any meaningful context.

If that makes sense.

It does, to a degree, but... meaningful context would be nice