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[Taboo]

flemm wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

She wanted things that ordinary people want. Just because you don't want them doesn't mean she can't have
them. We discussed this in the past jtav. They have basic wants and desires. That's what makes them three dimensional. She wants a family. She wants to fit in.

I remember discussing this. And, as we've discussed previously, that isn't what makes it a sexist stereotype.

What makes it a sexist stereotype is the fact that, for example, the desire for a family is portrayed as replacing her other interests and concerns, and that this is a positive thing, because her having a professional focus was bad, and changing over to exclusively wanting a family is good.

Everybody knows that this would be a sexist stereotype. Which is why, immediately, people tend to say: well, that's not really happening, Miranda just doesn't have enough content, etc.

Which may be true, in a sense, but it is still problematic until there is more content. If eventually there is more content of the appropriate kind, then the issue will be resolved.

The ideals are not gone. They are mitigated in order to provide closure to a character in the cheapest manner possible. We have discussed that as well. This happens to most of the ME2 cast. This is done in television and film. No one has given anything up. At all.

It's just lazy.

True hatred of women comes from seeing them as incapable or inferior. Miranda not only gets the job done but she excels at it. And she does all this while wanting a family. She does both.

I've heard the word misogyny be used more than once. That's an obscene word to use in this context. We can talk about misogyny when she cuts a piece of her groin out and is then strangled by a man like Charlotte Gainsbourg was in Antichrist. That's obscene.

Until then you need only to look at the laziness of artists.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:17 .

[Vertigo_1]

hot_heart wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

So I think I heard Jay say that time changes characters and sometimes they can't be what you wanted them to be.
6 months between ME2 and 3 vs 20 years working at Cerberus and only a few lines on that...

No Jay I don't buy that.

Yeah, but he did say that's the tricky part to capture. Plus, a character like Miranda has undergone a pretty major upheaval.

Tricky? I'm sorry, IMO, I can't see that as being that tough to implement within the restrictions they had...have the first conversation have what it has now + more on her thoughts on Cerberus and nothing on Oriana.  Second Conversation have her mention her worrying that she hasn't heard from Oriana and have that dialog where she says yeah we made sure she was safe in ME2 or not.

I suppose this is mostly rambling but I hope this makes sense, and I agree with you that he messed up on the tricky part Ieldra.

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:20 .

[Ieldra]

Well, Jay said what he wrote for ME3 was not a masterpiece, but next time he'll do better.

That's more than what we got from Hudson and Walters.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Dr. Doctor]

o Ventus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If you take the evidence of ME3's writing, she does appear to lose them. We can always say they're still there below the surface, and that's plausible given Miranda's story, but there is no evidence of it in the game. At the very least, the writers thought that aspect of Miranda unimportant enough to completely ignore it.

That's why I say the balance was lost. It's not that she wants more "normal" things now, it's that she isn't shown to want anything else any more. That's the sexist stereotype.

Liara's SB letter.

They aren't absent, they just aren't present with any meaningful context.

If that makes sense.

Rather, they are present, it's just hollow and not apparent at face value. It's bad writing when you find character traits about someone from a 3rd party source. 

ME3 has problems with telling the player what's going on instead of showing it. Miranda's leading a team of Cerberus renegades and doing things in the ending slides but we don't get to see or even talk about it . When you need to rely on other writers to flesh out a character you're writing there's a problem.

[jtav]

So even he knows he screwed up. Twice. But he did a much better job with Leviathan.

[o Ventus]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If you take the evidence of ME3's writing, she does appear to lose them. We can always say they're still there below the surface, and that's plausible given Miranda's story, but there is no evidence of it in the game. At the very least, the writers thought that aspect of Miranda unimportant enough to completely ignore it.

That's why I say the balance was lost. It's not that she wants more "normal" things now, it's that she isn't shown to want anything else any more. That's the sexist stereotype.

Liara's SB letter.

They aren't absent, they just aren't present with any meaningful context.

If that makes sense.

Rather, they are present, it's just hollow and not apparent at face value. It's bad writing when you find character traits about someone from a 3rd party source. 

ME3 has problems with telling the player what's going on instead of showing it. Miranda's leading a team of Cerberus renegades and doing things in the ending slides but we don't get to see or even talk about it . When you need to rely on other writers to flesh out a character you're writing there's a problem.

That too.

[o Ventus]

jtav wrote...

So even he knows he screwed up. Twice. But he did a much better job with Leviathan.

Not that it absolves him of anything.

[Dr. Doctor]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, Jay said what he wrote for ME3 was not a masterpiece, but next time he'll do better.

That's more than what we got from Hudson and Walters.

Ah yes, "next time".

[Ieldra]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, Jay said what he wrote for ME3 was not a masterpiece, but next time he'll do better.

Well, it doesn't seem like there's going to be a "next time" for him with Mass Effect or Miranda.

Unless, DLC.

Perhaps not, but it calms the waves somewhat, nonetheless. Maybe we can expect a more balanced picture if a DLC with Miranda is ever made.

[o Ventus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps not, but it calms the waves somewhat, nonetheless

To you, maybe.

Maybe we can expect a more balanced picture if a DLC with Miranda is ever made.

And if he isn't the one writing her.

Nothing against JayW personally, but from what I've seen, he isn't good at writing characters. He's better at plots. He says he wrote Ashley, and now I know who to blame for Ashley's horrid trust issues. He says he wrote Grunt, and now I know who to blame for Grunt's "reason" for not joining Shepard. He needs to learn how to display more than 1 character trait.

Modifié par o Ventus, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:25 .

[Vertigo_1]

Didn't you say that Jay is being moved to the ToR team Dr Doctor?

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[jtav]

Mostly he needs to learn that a character can both care about their family and have an interest in the larger world. Stop being such a lazy thinker. It may not help Miranda, but it may the next character he writes. And I do care about that.

[hot_heart]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
I suppose this is mostly rambling but I hope this makes sense, and I agree with you that he messed up on the tricky part Ieldra.

Well, I feel the same, what I meant was that he seems to acknowledge that they may have gotten some of it wrong.

[almondroy]

o Ventus wrote...

jtav wrote...

So even he knows he screwed up. Twice. But he did a much better job with Leviathan.

Not that it absolves him of anything.

I would say it is a mitigating factor; putting one of the most popular characters in the franchise (per polls) in the hands of a relatively inexperienced writer during the third episode of a trilogy seems like a questionable decision assignment-wise for whoever was handing out the writing tasks. The fact that the writer both addressed the issue by taking responsibility AND showed improvement on subsequent writing assignments should go a fair way in making amends.

Modifié par almondroy, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:28 .

[Vertigo_1]

hot_heart wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...
I suppose this is mostly rambling but I hope this makes sense, and I agree with you that he messed up on the tricky part Ieldra.

Well, I feel the same, what I meant was that he seems to acknowledge that they may have gotten some of it wrong.

OK, well that's something at least
Better than Mac and Casey back when they did the EC podcast I suppose.

[Ieldra]

o Ventus wrote...
Nothing against JayW personally, but from what I've seen, he isn't good at writing characters. He's better at plots. He says he wrote Ashley, and now I know who to blame for Ashley's horrid trust issues. He says he wrote Grunt, and now I know who to blame for Grunt's "reason" for not joining Shepard. He needs to learn how to display more than 1 character trait.

Agreed.

What did he write in Leviathan, btw?

[Vertigo_1]

Ieldra2 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
Nothing against JayW personally, but from what I've seen, he isn't good at writing characters. He's better at plots. He says he wrote Ashley, and now I know who to blame for Ashley's horrid trust issues. He says he wrote Grunt, and now I know who to blame for Grunt's "reason" for not joining Shepard. He needs to learn how to display more than 1 character trait.

Agreed.

What did he write in Leviathan, btw?

No specifics other than he wrote (along with another writer) 'a lot' of it:

twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/242322537474834434
"I would certainly hope there's more Single-Player DLC, because Leviathan was pretty awesome."

"Glad you liked it! Jay and Cathleen, currently on BioWare Livestream, wrote a lot of it. Hope to talk about more DLC soon."

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[hot_heart]

I think Jay could've done some things better, given the overall direction. I get the feeling that he was working from what they call a 'character bible' rather than a deeper understanding of the characters (not all the writers got characters they liked, so I guess it's understandable). Though there are some nice little bits with Miranda, I'm unsure whether that's Weekes' input or a fresh writer's perspective.

Modifié par hot_heart, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[o Ventus]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

I mean, I don't even know what the hell Grunt's reasoning was. I guess to get hammered and send me drunken messages.

That was why I put "reason" in quotations. There wasn't a reason provided. Just like Samara and Miranda.

Modifié par o Ventus, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:44 .

[hot_heart]

"rEAsons."

Ugh, I felt bad just typing that. "UnrEAlistic dEAdlines" was the issue.

OK, I'll stop...

[o Ventus]

This is off topic, but I loved Jay's answer when he was asked "What do you guys do when a script is leaked?"

lolol

[hot_heart]

"BURN THE WORLD TO THE GROUND!" ?