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[Dr. Doctor]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Didn't you say that Jay is being moved to the ToR team Dr Doctor?

He's working on the HK-51 plot which is good, Jay wrote Grunt's mission in ME3 which was really well done. Pretty much I think he'd be a much better story writer than a character writer.

[David7204]

Yesterday I asked for some suggestions on what to do with Miranda if she wasn't brought back as a squadmate. Nobody gave me anything.

[Steelcan]

Well back to Miranda, which outfit do you like best for her?

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

Well back to Miranda, which outfit do you like best for her?

Default white for me.

[fiendishchicken]

o Ventus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

 And what EAware intended for ME3 sucked.  There are lots of problems, one of the foremost being weak reason for characters ie. Miranda not joing up

What they intended was to make money. For them ME3 was the march golden egg chicken. They didn't care much about the content (everything past rannoch is poorly done), they only wanted a selling game at march, nothing more. They didn't want to give a closure to every ME fan. 

. And when we call them out we are vilified as entitled whiners

Also "artistic vision".

I respect the notion that anything can be considered art. That doesn't absolve it of all sin and hold it above criticism, especially when your "art" invalidates all of the other "art" in the franchise and kills and forseeable "art" that may have been otherwise possible.

It makes me wonder what Ray Muzyka was thinking when he said "our team". For some reason, I highly doubt "the team" wanted the lump of crap ending as much as Casey Hudson and Mac Walters.

I got a little off track there. /rant

I don't know... it might be the want of keeping their job, but every other BW employee seems like they absolutely love the endings.

The people who are fine after the EC are a lot the people who really didn't care about the overall story, since it did nothing to fix it. All it did was "everything was bad, but den it gots better!"

[hot_heart]

David7204 wrote...
Yesterday I asked for some suggestions on what to do with Miranda if she wasn't brought back as a squadmate. Nobody gave me anything.

Sorry, must have missed it. Suggestions for what? And do you mean was or wasn't?

[fiendishchicken]

o Ventus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Well back to Miranda, which outfit do you like best for her?

Default white for me.

Of the 3 we get?

Ditto with Ventus.

[David7204]

Anything. I agree, her story in ME 3 was underwhelming. But I'm not sure what to do with her character. So I figure this is the best place to fish for ideas.

And I did mean wasn't.

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Well back to Miranda, which outfit do you like best for her?

Default white for me.

Of the 3 we get?

Ditto with Ventus.

. Black outfit for me

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...


True hatred of women comes from seeing them as incapable or inferior. Miranda not only gets the job done but
she excels at it. And she does all this while wanting a family. She does both.

I've heard the word misogyny be used more than once. That's an obscene word to use in this context. We can talk about misogyny when she cuts a piece of her groin out and is then strangled by a man like Charlotte Gainsbourg was in Antichrist. That's obscene.

Until then you need only to look at the laziness of artists.

I'm afraid not, no. I'm going to elaborate a bit here, for clarity's sake.

Sexism and mysogyny are not precisely the same, though they are related. Mysogyny can briefly be defined as
the hatred of women, and sexism as attitudes/behaviors related to stereotypes of gender roles.

These attitudes can manifest themselves in culture and society in a variety of ways, some extreme (of which you have noted a couple of examples), some a lot more... veiled, or indirect.

The same is true of racism. Lynching is an extreme racist phenomenon, like vaginal mutilation in the case of mysogyny, but racism is not limited to that sort of extreme behavior anymore than is mysogyny or sexism.

One very common sexist perspective is the idea that women should be primarily focused on family and defined by their family relationships, to the exclusion of other concerns. It can be related to mysogynistic attitudes insofar as women who do not conform to that perspective can often be stigmatized.

Sometimes in entertainment, this type of sexism is latent: female characters just don't have any concerns
outside of romantic relationships or motherhood, for example.

Sometimes it is more explicit: female characters initially have professional concerns, but gradually shift to other, more "healthy" concerns exclusively. Both Ashley and Miranda were written by Jay, and both roles have serious problems with this type of sexism, in different ways.

It can be a product of laziness or inexperience, but it is what it is. Stereotypes are powerful things, and unfortunately it often takes skill and experience to avoid conforming to them.

This is not a personal attack on the author. I'm sure Jay is a fine individual. These things happen. But the role should be improved and corrected in important respects to avoid these issues. (Miranda's role is not the only one adversely affected by this type of thing.)

Modifié par flemm, 02 septembre 2012 - 08:03 .

[hot_heart]

David7204 wrote...

Anything. I agree, her story in ME 3 was underwhelming. But I'm not sure what to do with her character. So I figure this is the best place to fish for ideas.

And I did mean wasn't.

Oh, are you planning to write something?

Either way, I'd picture her has possibly in Jacob's role but then taking direct action against Cerberus when they pretty much declare war.

[David7204]

Flemm, we're not going to make every female in the story Super Susie just to be politically correct. Like it or not, females and males having different skills and occupying different roles is realistic. Plenty of women conform to stereotypes, just like plenty of men do. The writer isn't advertising that as a good thing just by having those characters in a story.

Modifié par David7204, 02 septembre 2012 - 08:07 .

[Steelcan]

hot_heart wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Anything. I agree, her story in ME 3 was underwhelming. But I'm not sure what to do with her character. So I figure this is the best place to fish for ideas.

And I did mean wasn't.

Oh, are you planning to write something?

Either way, I'd picture her has possibly in Jacob's role but then taking direct action against Cerberus when they pretty much declare war.

. That would be nice.  Or having her as a squadmate there's no real reason not to

[hot_heart]

Steelcan wrote...
That would be nice.  Or having her as a squadmate there's no real reason not to

Oh, totally, but he asked if she weren't a squadmate (which she wasn't  ).

[fiendishchicken]

David7204 wrote...

Flemm, we're not going to make every female in the story Super Susie just to be politically correct. Like it or not, females and males having different skills and occupying different roles is realistic. Plenty of women conform to stereotypes, just like plenty of men do. The writer isn't advertising that as a good thing just by having those characters in a story.

And now you're going off on someone because of a misinterpreted reading, on your part I might add.

[David7204]

We can't bring back all ten ME 2 squadmates.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

We can't bring back all ten ME 2 squadmates.

Last I checked, Miranda isn't 10 people.

[flemm]

David7204 wrote...

Flemm, we're not going to make every female in the story Super Susie just to be politically correct. Like it or not, females and males having different skills and occupying different roles is realistic.

This is a strawman argument.

Briefly: not conforming to stereotypes has little to do with being politically correct. Females and males are different, but not in the sense that women should be more exclusively focused on family. That is a sexist notion, pure and simple.

In our society, until quite recently, only a few professions were open to women. People would have argued (and *did* argue) that woman could not excel at a lot of things. That women "occupying certain roles" was appropriate.

In actual fact, that was just nonsense, and women excel at all manner of activities that previously would have been restricted to men.

Modifié par flemm, 02 septembre 2012 - 08:11 .

[Steelcan]

o Ventus wrote...

David7204 wrote...

We can't bring back all ten ME 2 squadmates.

Last I checked, Miranda isn't 10 people.

. And some of them got a reasonable treatment in the game ie. Mordin, Legion, and Thane and Jacob but who cares about Jacob?)

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

David7204 wrote...

We can't bring back all ten ME 2 squadmates.

Last I checked, Miranda isn't 10 people.

. And some of them got a reasonable treatment in the game ie. Mordin, Legion, and Thane and Jacob but who cares about Jacob?)

Thane definitely did not get reasonable treatment.

[David7204]

flemm wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Flemm, we're not going to make every female in the story Super Susie just to be politically correct. Like it or not, females and males having different skills and occupying different roles is realistic.

This is a strawman argument.

Briefly: not conforming to stereotypes has little to do with being politically correct. Females and males are different, but not in the sense that women should be more exclusively focused on family. That is a sexist notion, pure and simple.

In our society, until quite recently, only a few professions were open to women. People would have argued (and *did* argue) that woman could not excel at a lot of things. That women "occupying certain roles" was appropriate.

In actual fact, that was just nonsense, and women excel at all manner of activities that previously would have been restricted to men.

So it's a sexist notion. So the hell what? The fact is, men and women are different in society. There's debate over if they're equal or not, but there's no question that they're different. Whether that's how society should be is irrelavent. For the moment, that's the way it is.

It's ridiculous to call storytellers who portray that as "lazy" or "inexperienced." It's not the writer's job to babysit society by portraying how the world should be. It's his job to tell a story.

Modifié par David7204, 02 septembre 2012 - 08:16 .

[Steelcan]

o Ventus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

David7204 wrote...

We can't bring back all ten ME 2 squadmates.

Last I checked, Miranda isn't 10 people.

. And some of them got a reasonable treatment in the game ie. Mordin, Legion, and Thane and Jacob but who cares about Jacob?)

Thane definitely did not get reasonable treatment.

. He was already dying, I didn't mind his write off as much as say Grunt or Miranda

[flemm]

David7204 wrote...

So it's a sexist notion. So the hell what? The fact is, men and women are different in society. There's
debate over if they're equal or not, but there's no question that they're different. Whether that's how society should be is irrelavent. For the moment, that's the way it is.

It's ridiculous to call storytellers who portray that as "lazy" or "inexperienced." It's not the writers job to babysit society by portraying how the world should be. It's his job to tell a story.

I'm not sure where you live, or what your society is like.

But where I live, the idea that women are better off focusing exclusively on family was left behind a long time ago.

The reality of how these issues play out in modern society is complex. Some men focus on family, while women have the lucrative career. In many families, both partners have a career. Women struggle with balancing family and career, and make all types of decisions relative to that.

So, these stereotypes no longer conform to "reality" in any way. They are in fact extremely dated, and can be characterized as reactionary partly for that reason.

Modifié par flemm, 02 septembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Steelcan]

flemm wrote...

David7204 wrote...
So it's a sexist notion. So the hell what? The fact is, men and women are different in society. There's
debate over if they're equal or not, but there's no question that they're different. Whether that's how society should be is irrelavent. For the moment, that's the way it is.
It's ridiculous to call storytellers who portray that as "lazy" or "inexperienced." It's not the writers job to babysit society by portraying how the world should be. It's his job to tell a story.

I'm not sure where you live, or what your society is like.
But where I live, the idea that women are better off focusing exclusively on family was left behind a long time ago.

The reality of how these issues play out in modern society is complex. Some men focus on family, while women have the lucrative career. In many families, both partners have a career. Women struggle with balancing family and career, and make all types of decisions relative to that.
So, these stereotypes no longer conform to "reality" in any way. They are in fact extremely dated, and can be characterized as reactionary partly for that reason.

. You obviously don't live in America

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]