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[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote... do you remember the first game when Ash said she hates politics and pretty much thought the Council was a joke? How in-character was her accepting Udina's offer? I mean, we all know she's a hypocrite, but that was just too much.

Dear babi,
I am not a fan of the political system in my country.  I feel everyone just spends their time badmouthing the opposition.  I seriously think both political parties are bull****, and rarely vote.  I also work as an analyst for my state's attorney general helping to prosecute medicaid thiefs and people who abuse the elderly.  Am I also a hypocrit, or someone disenfranchised with politics who still wants to help society?

Sincerly,
Krukow.

PS: do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to, because that was brilliant analysis!

Anyone that does something against their beliefs can be considered a hypocrit. As if you are one or not, that depends, do you condone abusing the elderly? I'm guessing you don't, so that was a poor analogy.

Also, how about stick to the actual fact being in question? Ashley has been a hypocrit since ME2, but choosing to become a Spectre is just plain OOC.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:08 .

[krukow]

fiendishchicken wrote...

krukow wrote...

Have you seen the launch trailer? Miranda isn't in it. Ashley is in it a ton, and gets a quick love scene cut.

It's because the developers are rather conservative. They need a Betty character as the LI.

Just stop.  Miranda is far more betty homemaker in ME3, yet she's sidelined.  She was the cover character of ME2.  Are you saying she was the "Betty" character of ME2?

I'm just trolling (you all started it!).  The reality is they're both central human characters, both central for various games, Miranda just got sidelined in ME3 for stupid reasons (I don't know what reasons).

but they're equally strong.

[krukow]

Babi_Siha wrote...
Anyone that does something against their beliefs can be considered a hypocrit. As if you are one or not, that depends, do you agree with people who abuse the elderly? I'm guessing you don't, so that was a poor analogy.

Also, how about stick to the actual fact being in question? Ashley has been a hypocrit since ME2, but choosing to become a Spectre is just plain OOC.

No it's not.  I was making an analogy to help you understand.

As a spectre she can help galactic society, even human society.  Just because she's not a fan of politics, doesn't mean she can't see an assignment as a means to her goal.

Miranda would accept spectre status if offered for the same reason.

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

Babi_Siha wrote... do you remember the first game when Ash said she hates politics and pretty much thought the Council was a joke? How in-character was her accepting Udina's offer? I mean, we all know she's a hypocrite, but that was just too much.

 I seriously think both political parties are bull****, and rarely vote.

Dear Krukow,

Get your ****ing ass off the damn couch and vote.

 2 million men and women are paying for it

I hate that crap. Even if you think it sucks, vote for something anything.

Change it if you don't like it. That's how the system works. By voting.



And Ashley is a moron for saying that. Most soldiers are very much into the political game. It's how you get things done. 

There's too much emphasis on anti-politics. It's not even real politics being displayed. That's just... stupidity on the part of the Council and Ashley, and pretty much everybody there.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:08 .

[Taboo]

This **** is not going to get resolved. Perhaps if there was another venue to talk about Miranda we could do so there...

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

No it's not.  I was making an analogy to help you understand.

As a spectre she can help galactic society, even human society.  Just because she's not a fan of politics, doesn't mean she can't see an assignment as a means to her goal.

Miranda would accept spectre status if offered for the same reason.

And as marine she can't? That's another hypocrisy of her then to think that the mighty Alliance isn't good enough to help galactic society.

And no, as cool as that would be, Miranda wouldn't accept to be a Spectre in the same way she would never join the Alliance. She agreed with Cerberus' views, that's why she was such a loyalist before she saw TIM true colors. She wouldn't join something she didn't believe in, let alone the joke she believes the Alliance and the Council are.

[krukow]

Babi_Siha wrote...

krukow wrote...

No it's not.  I was making an analogy to help you understand.

As a spectre she can help galactic society, even human society.  Just because she's not a fan of politics, doesn't mean she can't see an assignment as a means to her goal.

Miranda would accept spectre status if offered for the same reason.

And as marine she can't? That's another hypocrisy of her then to think that the mighty Alliance isn't good enough to help galactic society.

And no, as cool as that would be, Miranda wouldn't accept to be a Spectre in the same way she would never join the Alliance. She agreed with Cerberus' views, that's why she was such a loyalist before she saw TIM true colors. She wouldn't join something she didn't believe in, let alone the joke she believes the Alliance and the Council are.

...really???


As a spectre, Miranda would be free to do so much.  Especially as someone who sees the end of a specific action, I cannot see her passing on that. 

She could literally enforce the law she felt important!!

[Skullheart]

off-topic
pfff, voting in my country sucks even more.The vote is mandatory, if you don't vote you'll have to pay a nice fine.

And regardding Miranda as Spectre, she would never accept the offer. The council and her ideas aren't in the same direction.

Modifié par Skullheart, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[Babi_Siha]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Dear Krukow,

Get your ****ing ass off the damn couch and vote.

 2 million men and women are paying for it

I hate that crap. Even if you think it sucks, vote for something anything.

Change it if you don't like it. That's how the system works. By voting.

fiendishchicken, I'm with krukow on this one. In Brazil we are obliged by law to vote and there's nothing worse than voting just so you don't get a fine, especially since our politicians are a bunch of morons. If he doesn't like politics and thinks no one is worth of his vote it's his choice.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

...really???


As a spectre, Miranda would be free to do so much.  Especially as someone who sees the end of a specific action, I cannot see her passing on that. 

She could literally enforce the law she felt important!!

Except being a Spectre would also mean answering to the Council and she has zero faith in them. She wouldn't accept something she didn't believe.

[krukow]

Babi_Siha wrote...

krukow wrote...

...really???


As a spectre, Miranda would be free to do so much.  Especially as someone who sees the end of a specific action, I cannot see her passing on that. 

She could literally enforce the law she felt important!!

Except being a Spectre would also mean answering to the Council and she has zero faith in them. She wouldn't accept something she didn't believe.

Only sort of.

Spectre is a lifetime appointment.  Shep hung up on them so often!  I really can't see her passing on all the good she could do just because she would have to put up with 4 useless people.

She's not that petty.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

Only sort of.

Spectre is a lifetime appointment.  Shep hung up on them so often!  I really can't see her passing on all the good she could do just because she would have to put up with 4 useless people.

She's not that petty.

She's not petty but there are a lot of other things she could do to help. Imagine if she still had access to the Lazarus project technology or research, she could help a lot of people, and not in the sense of bringing them back to life. Her father is dead, so we can assume all his wealth will go to her and Oriana since he had a sort of God complex and probably never considered dying as an option, which means no will; credits won't be an issue. Or she could either reform Cerberus os start an organization on her own.

And honestly, the Council does more damage than good most of the time, don't you think the war would be a lot easier if they listened to Shepard since his first warning? Pay attention to their attitude, they won't help Shepard in ME3 because it's not their planet being invaded by the Reapers, if Shepard chooses not to do something they want, like sabotage the genophage, he doesn't get the support of the salarians, which I'm pretty sure Valern could invalidate the dalatress... Miranda isn't petty, they are, in the end they only look out for themselves.

Modifié par Babi_Siha, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:42 .

[krukow]

Babi_Siha wrote...

krukow wrote...

Only sort of.

Spectre is a lifetime appointment.  Shep hung up on them so often!  I really can't see her passing on all the good she could do just because she would have to put up with 4 useless people.

She's not that petty.

She's not be but there are a lot of other things she could do to help.

And honestly, the Council does more damage than good most of the time, don't you think the war would be a lot easier if they listened to Shepard since his first warning? Pay attention to their attitude, they won't help Shepard in ME3 because it's not their planet being invaded by the Reapers, if Shepard chooses not to do something they want, like sabotage the genophage, he doesn't get the support of the salarians, which I'm pretty sure Valern could invalidate the dalatress... Miranda isn't petty, they are, in the end they only look out for themselves.

You're arguing agaisnt yourself.  You're right, they should have listened to shepard.  Don't you think it follows that they will in the future, and to the spectres appointed after him (Ash, Miri)?

And she can't do as much as a non-spectre as she can as a spectre.  She just doesn't have the authority.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

You're arguing agaisnt yourself.  You're right, they should have listened to shepard.  Don't you think it follows that they will in the future, and to the spectres appointed after him (Ash, Miri)?

And she can't do as much as a non-spectre as she can as a spectre.  She just doesn't have the authority.

No, you are the one not presenting any good arguments as to why Miri would accept being a Spectre, she doesn't care about the Council. And no, I don't think things will ever be different, Ash said so herself, every species will only look out for themselves and there's not much Spectres can do if the Council doesn't agree with them and revoke their status.

Also, I edited my post above your pointing what kind of stuff Miranda could do.

[krukow]

spectres's answer to the council, but they dont' serve them. There is nothing she can do that she can't do as a spectre. There are things she can do as a spectre she can't do otherwise.

That's reality yo.

[Ieldra]

krukow wrote...
Different interprations are fine, but you can't just ignore the stuff you don't like, or call that stuff a "mutilation". Bioware created Miranda, they decide what is in character and what isn't.

Actually, I can do that. Character writing is not always consistent, and things that amount to contradíctions without getting the necessary development beforehand to explain them can reasonably be criticized as out of character. Take Shepard, for instance, and his retarded refusal to recognize the mental inflluence on that mining colony. I'm sorry, but that clashes with Shepard's story so far. As with Miranda's infamous line, you can pull things out of your ass to explain it, but basically it's so out of place that the only explanation that really works is temporary insanity.

As for mutilation, I'm fairly confident in saying Miranda has been mutilated in ME3. A lot of non-fans have commented on it, so it's not as if this was based on wishful thinking by a faction of hardcore fans.

@Yannkee:
It is regrettable that some Miranda fans feel they don't like to come here, but that can't prevent us from discussing certain contentious issues from time to time. Also, it's the same with other character threads, with a few notable exceptions, and it's partly the fault of the forum structure. If we had a forum where characters could be discussed in several threads without them vanishing downthread in a day without traffic, such topics could be avoided by those who don't like to discuss them. We should have a subforum for every character. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:47 .

[fiendishchicken]

krukow wrote...

spectres's answer to the council, but they dont' serve them. There is nothing she can do that she can't do as a spectre. There are things she can do as a spectre she can't do otherwise.

That's reality yo.

I seem to recall the council breathing down Shepard's neck, even grounding him.

Spectre status isn't all it's cracked up to be. Shepard has a job to do despite the alliance and the council.

And where was the council or Spectre status after Bahak?

And there's nothing she'll do as a Spectre that she wasn't doing as a member of Cerberus.

[Babi_Siha]

krukow wrote...

spectres's answer to the council, but they dont' serve them. There is nothing she can do that she can't do as a spectre. There are things she can do as a spectre she can't do otherwise.

That's reality yo.

And do you remember when Saren was acting on his own that he had his status revoked? And Cerberus was a terrorist organization and she still accomplished a lot more than any Spectre ever could (like bringing Shepard back).

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...
Different interprations are fine, but you can't just ignore the stuff you don't like, or call that stuff a "mutilation". Bioware created Miranda, they decide what is in character and what isn't.

Actually, I can do that. Character writing is not always consistent, and things that amount to contradíctions without getting the necessary development beforehand to explain them can reasonably be criticized as out of character. Take Shepard, for instance, and his retarded refusal to recognize the mental inflluence on that mining colony. I'm sorry, but that clashes with Shepard's story so far. As with Miranda's infamous line, you can pull things out of your ass to explain it, but basically it's so out of place that the only explanation that really works is temporary insanity.

As for mutilation, I'm fairly confident in saying Miranda has been mutilated in ME3. A lot of non-fans have commented on it, so it's not as if this was based on wishful thinking by a faction of hardcore fans.

I...disagree. Vehemently. No one sees things the exact same way.

It can't be art if it isn't one way.

Go back and listen to the line in the Collector Base again. She is being pragmatic but not in the way you think she is. I don't know what language you play in but I know that context can be lost when we aren't hearing things in the same language.

She says "We can't afford to go back Shepard." She's referring to the entire team. She's more than willing to allow one member to go back and help even at the cost of the mission.

And she's pleased to hear that Mordin leads everyone back safely. She's entirely capable of being reasonable AND emotional at the same time. The line delivery there suggest as such.

This comparison that you make is nonsense, especially when you say she was being consistent up until that point. She was, but not in the way you wanted.

It doesn't suprise me that she considers the choice what she does with certain dialogue choices. She's more than capable of having an emotional reaction AND being pragmatic at the same time.

[Taboo]

^ I should stress that that is MY interpretation of the material.

[katcrave]

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ I should stress that that is MY interpretation of the material.

I agree with your interpretation of the material.

And I can explain the position without "pulling stuff out of my ass".

[Taboo]

That is the character I advocate for, especially on the story forums. And it is the one I will continue to support.

And I will continue to do so but not out of some false sense of authority.

It is my opinion. It is my interpretation. It is how I see things.

And people agree with me so I'm not as crazy as I think I am. But that doesn't mean I'm right to everyone else.

That is the strength of art.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
It is my opinion. It is my interpretation. It is how I see things.

And people agree with me so I'm not as crazy as I think I am. But that doesn't mean I'm right to everyone else.

There are also several people who agree with me. There are factions in Miranda's fanbase. There have always been. We already agreed to disagree on this matter and I wouldn't have brought it up again if not for krukow's attempt to censor the thread through threats of trolling.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 septembre 2012 - 07:02 .

[lillitheris]

krukow wrote...

spectres's answer to the council, but they dont' serve them. There is nothing she can do that she can't do as a spectre. There are things she can do as a spectre she can't do otherwise.

There’re many things she can’t do if she’s not a spectre. Or she can, but risks arrest and any number of other repercussions.

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I haven't played something in the Forgotten Realms from Bioware in YEARS but I would put Miranda in the Neutral alignments.

Early Miranda would be classified as Neutral Evil, slowly making her way toward Neutral Good (without passing through True Neutral, which is the alignment of all douche posers everywhere).