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[Ieldra]

fiendishchicken wrote...

krukow wrote...

Have you seen the launch trailer? Miranda isn't in it. Ashley is in it a ton, and gets a quick love scene cut.

Alas, me and taboo are discussing this.

It's because the developers are rather conservative. They need a Betty character as the LI.

Miranda is too dominant of a character. They don't want a character as good as Shepard, if not better, especially a woman. 

Ashley is safe because she's strong, but not too strong, and has the homegrown quality many people, most people like.

Miranda appeals more to the alpha guys, the A-types. We have a lot of those in here. We want a competition and mystery as much as we want love. The sophisticated, icy, urbane woman.

I don't know if I'm an "A-type", but yes, that's what I want. I like Ashley as a character, she's well-written and mostly consistent, but she's a follower, and she's a rather straightforward archetype, a "straight arrow" who embodies a worldview I view as simplistic and doesn't appeal to my sense of mystery and challenge. I see ME3's writing of Miranda as an attempt to move her to the same category, and we really didn't need that.

Or they wanted Miranda fans to move on to Liara, who between LotSB and ME3 has acquired some traits we admire in Miranda. I wouldn't put it beyond Mac Walters to promote his pet in that way.

Miranda was meant to appeal as an unattainable woman of sorts, the kind that's way out of your league, even if you are Commander Shepard. And most guys don't like that because, lets face it, most of us haven't had luck with women I'm guessing. Or they remind you of the snbby girl in HS.

Miranda's a woman most of us could never impress enough in RL, and that's part of the thrill in having her as an LI in the game. I'm sure there are more than enough players out there feeling the same.

As you say, the problem lies with the developers. Either there's a reactionary faction which got hold of Miranda, or they think most players are reactionary or at least anti-intellectualist. Shepard's occasional bouts of stupidity appear to point to the latter. An additional problem is they often compromise character traits for drama and outright pandering. See Shepard his artificial stupidity at the mining colony again.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 septembre 2012 - 08:09 .

[hot_heart]

I can't say I'm privy to whatever other people have been saying about the thread. Though I could understand if they're put off by some of the non-Miranda related discussion, such as the aggressive attitudes towards or characterisation of other characters. You don't like it when you see Miranda dismissed as a 'b#$@h' or just a sex object, and I'm sure others feel the same when you simplify their favourite characters.

Of course, you don't have to like every single character, that's what makes ME so great and diverse, but there's no reason to be disrespectful about them or their fans. Each of them play their part, and they're fans of Mass Effect just the same.

There are ways of voicing dissatisfaction or dislike without offending others. As the saying goes "Tact is the art of making a point, without making an enemy."

[hot_heart]

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying go make a character-bashing thread or go to that character's thread. I just mean try to voice your opinion in a respectful manner.

I'd like to think most of us are capable of that (as Ieldra demonstrates on this very page) but I have noticed occasions where it can look a little offensive.

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As you say, the problem lies with the developers. Either there's a reactionary faction which got hold of Miranda, or they think most players are reactionary or at least anti-intellectualist. Shepard's occasional bouts of stupidity appear to point to the latter. An additional problem is they often compromise character traits for drama and outright pandering. See Shepard his artificial stupidity at the mining colony again.

If i had to guess i'd say Miranda suffered from complete unimaginative writing and no one in the dev team loving the character like we do. Weekes has talked about heated discussions over roles in ME3 and my guess is that Miranda was discarded into a corner without a champion. When she was finally picked off the floor they grabbed the first handle they could think of Oriana/father rehash coupled with unimaginative redemption arc. Then she got passed to a junior writer who wrote the role to that Spec without fleshing out the story within the space that existed despite the confines of the role to properly reflect the complex character, instead choosing to bloat the content with filler.

[MisterJB]

krukow wrote...

I just think there needs to be a new rule. When someone says a line is OOC for Miranda, especially a ME2 line, their opinion is immediately invalid.

I mean, I know this is the internet, home of the know it all arrogant douche, but your interpretation of Miranda's character is not better than the interpretation of the PEOPLE WHO CREATED HER.'

So yeah, I will troll everyone who claims the collector base line is OOC from now on. It's part of her character, just as valid as every other line.

Miranda is not a real person, she is a fictional construct that was written by three different people. Even were we so fortunate as to have only Weekes write her through all games, no person is perfect and mistakes can and tend to happen.
Thus, if something a character says in a book or a game directly contradicts a great number of that character extablished traits, then the fans have the right, the duty, to make the writers notice this.

Maybe it happens because there is more than one writer and not enough comunication between them, maybe it is because the writer felt it was more important to present a particular message at that point than to keep the character consistent. Whatever the reason, writers can makes mistakes and, because of that, what is shipped in the game is not sacrosanct and to question it is not blasphemous.

Whether her line is OOC or not is debatable, of course, but what is important is to remember that the game can be debated.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:35 .

[t3HPrO]

Y'know, things would be a LOT more peaceful if we could just keep our opinions to ourselves.

[lillitheris]

I disagree!

[Berg]

t3HPrO wrote...

Y'know, things would be a LOT more peaceful if we could just keep our opinions to ourselves.

I assume you mean just keeping opinions on the heated topic of Miranda being/not being OOC in certain scenes to ourselves. Otherwise this thread would get quite boring!

But I think you are right in that we should just agree to disagree. This thread has become a bit more aggressive than I ever remember before, with quite direct attacks being flung around at times. And it seems to be mainly based on a different interpretation of the character.

Modifié par oh brother, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:05 .

[Ieldra]

oh brother wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...
Y'know, things would be a LOT more peaceful if we could just keep our opinions to ourselves.

I assume you mean just keeping opinions on the heated topic of Miranda being/not being OOC in certain scenes to ourselves. Otherwise this thread would get quite boring!

But I think you are right in that we should just agree to disagree. This thread has become a bit more aggressive than I ever remember before, with quite direct attacks being flung around at times. And it seems to be mainly based on a different interpretation of the character.

Debates about contentious topics flare up from time to time, mainly at any time when there's a number of people in the thread who haven't been exposed to those topics before. 

Also, Miranda's fanbase appears to be singular in being divided into two factions which disagree about several aspects of her along the same lines. If I know where someone stands on one issue, I can predict with some accuracy where they stand on the others. It's an interesting phenomenon, but it's a recipe for fights breaking out at regular intervals. All we can do is keep the disagreements civil and see to it that the fights won't happen too often. Avoiding them altogether for any length of time is neither possible nor desirable since they touch central aspects of Miranda as a character. If they didn't, the disagreements wouldn't be as passionate.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[t3HPrO]

I see I've got myself a stalker on here and on ff.net. Hi, Tomato Bisk. By the way, it's B-I-S-Q-U-E, not Bisk. Dumba*s. And yes you are an obvious B1oDr0ne, don't deny it.

Anyways, have more Miranda pic.



[edit] Lol they now censor the word 'Bi0Dr0ne'!

Modifié par t3HPrO, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:29 .

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also, Miranda's fanbase appears to be singular in being divided into two factions which disagree about several aspects of her along the same lines. If I know where someone stands on one issue, I can predict with some accuracy where they stand on the others. It's an interesting phenomenon, but it's a recipe for fights breaking out at regular intervals. All we can do is keep the disagreements civil and see to it that the fights won't happen too often. Avoiding them altogether for any length of time is neither possible nor desirable since they touch central aspects of Miranda as a character. If they didn't, the disagreements wouldn't be as passionate.

Really i'd much prefer a good passionate but civil debate about the character to pages of mindless pap. As long as people accept that others interpretations are equal valid that's all that's needed.

Modifié par wright1978, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[fiendishchicken]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

hot_heart wrote...

I can't say I'm privy to whatever other people have been saying about the thread. Though I could understand if they're put off by some of the non-Miranda related discussion, such as the aggressive attitudes towards or characterisation of other characters. You don't like it when you see Miranda dismissed as a 'b#$@h' or just a sex object, and I'm sure others feel the same when you simplify their favourite characters.

Of course, you don't have to like every single character, that's what makes ME so great and diverse, but there's no reason to be disrespectful about them or their fans. Each of them play their part, and they're fans of Mass Effect just the same.

There are ways of voicing dissatisfaction or dislike without offending others. As the saying goes "Tact is the art of making a point, without making an enemy."

This is the only place to talk about characters you don't like, at least to me, because it is pretty ungenerous to do it in another character's thread. That's sacred ground for that character.

There is a diffrence in dicussion a trait(s) in a character you don't like vs. outright vitriol of a character; I agree with you on that.

I'd like to think most of us in this thread are pretty civil about discordence with a character.

Like me. The only character I can honestly say I outright despise with utter vitriol is Ashley Williams.

[Berg]

wright1978 wrote...
Really i'd
much prefer a good passionate but civil debate about the character to
pages of mindless pap. As long as people accept that others
interpretations are equal valid that's all that's needed.

^ Yes, certainly. I wasn't advocating that we ignore these topics, just that we should accept that there are different interpretations, and "agree to disagree". Or at least that people have the right to disagree.

The only arguments that actually annoy me are the "anyone who doesn't agree with this is stupid/doesn't understand/is evil" type. I am not having a go at anyone, this is a general BSN issue: "anyone who enjoys the ending is a moron who loves CoD, and a fanboi" or "anyone who dislikes the ending just doesn't "get" it".

@Ieldra - what are the issues? Collector base, and...?

Modifié par oh brother, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:49 .

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I haven't played something in the Forgotten Realms from Bioware in YEARS but I would put Miranda in the Neutral alignments.

Early Miranda would be classified as Neutral Evil, slowly making her way toward Neutral Good (without passing through True Neutral, which is the alignment of all douche posers everywhere).

I agree with you.

I never understood True Neutral to be honest. I remember hearing Jaheira talki about "The Balance" and would scratch my head at it. You'd switch sides in a fight just to keep the balance?

Anyway thank you for the clarification.

[t3HPrO]

So, does anyone else here think that Leviathan is pretty much the last piece of ME3 DLC to be released?

[Taboo]

No. They have more coming.

Omega related. Citadel related.

Much more is still to come.

[Berg]

^Patrick Weekes strongly hinted that it would not be on his twitter account. I cannot remember the exact quote, but it was something like "if you are looking for more DLC I doubt you will be disappointed".

[flemm]

Yeah, it sounds like more is coming.

[Stalker]

... and I am still waiting for the announcement that makes me "hold onto my ME3 forever".

Guess I was right that this quote was all about random DLC to extend on the mediocre game (rather than fixing something)

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 04 septembre 2012 - 03:18 .

[Taboo]

To be honest it looks like the DLC is better than quite a bit of the core game. If that's the case perhaps it will balance out the less than satisfactory elements.

It happens.

A "true" Extended Cut.

[fiendishchicken]

Taboo-XX wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I haven't played something in the Forgotten Realms from Bioware in YEARS but I would put Miranda in the Neutral alignments.

Early Miranda would be classified as Neutral Evil, slowly making her way toward Neutral Good (without passing through True Neutral, which is the alignment of all douche posers everywhere).

I agree with you.

I never understood True Neutral to be honest. I remember hearing Jaheira talki about "The Balance" and would scratch my head at it. You'd switch sides in a fight just to keep the balance?

Anyway thank you for the clarification.

True Neutral or Lawful Neutral is what I am. I do have a sense of altruism, and I have a sense of callous apathy.

I actually think I am not so much a neutral person as I am a hybrid of mixed traits, which I suppose is neutral. 

I (and Shepard who I am also refering to) have the capacity to be lawful good in some cases, and chaotic evil, and everything in between.

By the time of the end for me though, Shepard is broken down emotionally and the pressure is starting to make him crack. Lashing out at the crew, fighting recklessly, etc. Saving Miranda at Sanctuary really helped him, because by this point she is all that he's fighting for now. There is the veneer of protecting and guarding the galaxy, but his fight is more personal now. He has his stake in the future of the galaxy and he's going to fight for her until he has her and knows she's safe.

So not neutral, but everything. Miranda starts off more as a lawful neutral/evil type. She does have a sense of good and justice though, and she wants to do whats best for humanity.

[Taboo]

Chaotic Evil is Christopher Nolan's Joker. I doubt many people in here are like that.

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 04 septembre 2012 - 03:30 .