82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Caihn]

hot_heart wrote...

Yeah, not to drag up the debate again, but it seems pretty clear what TIM intends to do. He never denies that he'd try to build his own Reaper or reuse the Human one (and it's especially obvious in the dialogue without Miranda there) instead of just study the tech. Of course, that is a separate argument as to whether it "feels like a betrayal". Though, it could be argued that Miranda suspected TIM would effectively be 'reusing' all the dead colonists in some capacity.

I can see validity on equal sides. In places, I see an arc where Miranda has come to appreciate people as more than expendable and herself as more than a 'tool' whereas in others you can see the consequentialist Miranda. And let's not forget that some of her role is 'mechanical' in that she is supposed to offer opinions and advice, so that line is merely in support of Paragon Shepard.

No it isn't. It's a conversation between Miranda and TIM. She doesn't support Shepard arguments, she's against TIM's opinion to use  (use not study) the base.

My only problem with this line (and the resignation) is that it should happen in private, not in front of Shepard and an another crew member.

Modifié par Yannkee, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:08 .

[lillitheris]

I don’t see why it should be private.

I’d also disagree with the claim that studying isn’t using, but whatever.

[Caihn]

lillitheris wrote...

I don’t see why it should be private.

I’d also disagree with the claim that studying isn’t using, but whatever.

It should be private because it's not Shepard's buisness.

And there is a difference between studying the technology of the base, and using the base. And what happen in ME3 proves that Miranda was right.

[hot_heart]

Yannkee wrote...
No it isn't. It's a conversation between Miranda and TIM. She doesn't support Shepard arguments

Maybe I put it a bit reductively, since Miranda is still her own character, but what I mean is that the controversial line is only triggered by Shepard choosing "This place is an abomination" which would be the 'idealist' Shepard line. It is not triggered by the alternative dialogue that either questions his motives or the practicality.

[Caihn]

hot_heart wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
No it isn't. It's a conversation between Miranda and TIM. She doesn't support Shepard arguments

Maybe I put it a bit reductively, since Miranda is still her own character, but what I mean is that the controversial line is only triggered by Shepard choosing "This place is an abomination" which would be the 'idealist' Shepard line. It is not triggered by the alternative dialogue that either questions his motives or the practicality.

Yes because TIM's response is different.
Like I said, Miranda is responding to TIM not to Shepard.

Anyway .. that's how I interpret this line and why it doesn't seem OOC to me.

Modifié par Yannkee, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:24 .

[lillitheris]

Yannkee wrote...

It should be private because it's not Shepard's buisness.

I dunno, I can see that, but at the same time it could be viewed either as wanting to include Shepard, or a more public catharsis for her own sake.

[Caihn]

lillitheris wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

It should be private because it's not Shepard's buisness.

I dunno, I can see that, but at the same time it could be viewed either as wanting to include Shepard, or a more public catharsis for her own sake.

Personally, I would have put this line and the resignation after the suicide mission. When Shepard is going to see Miranda, he encounters the conversation between Miranda and TIM.

Modifié par Yannkee, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:41 .

[Lawrence0294]

Taboo-XX wrote...

 lolololol

She's a real human being.

But is she a real hero?

Do you get this reference?

I know this is old but i had to link it

 

[Ieldra]

hot_heart wrote...
Yeah, not to drag up the debate again, but it seems pretty clear what TIM intends to do. He never denies that he'd try to build his own Reaper or reuse the Human one (and it's especially obvious in the dialogue without Miranda there) instead of just study the tech. Of course, that is a separate argument as to whether it "feels like a betrayal". Though, it could be argued that Miranda suspected TIM would effectively be 'reusing' all the dead colonists in some capacity.

I'd still say that anything that doesn't result in some tangible evil (such as sacrificing more colonists) as opposed to what amounts to a "victimless crime" (re-using stuff made from those already dead) would be ok with Miranda, given the situation and the stakes. Perhaps she doesn't feel comfortable with it - who would, really - but just like she'd possibly kill the Rachni queen in spite of having empathy she'd be ok with using stuff from the base under certain conditions. It's quite the difference saying "I don't trust X not to commit any more atrocities with it" and "This stuff shouldn't be used in any way". If could interpret her line specifically applying to what TIM would do with the base, I wouldn't have any problem with it.

I can see validity on equal sides. In places, I see an arc where Miranda has come to appreciate people as more than expendable and herself as more than a 'tool' whereas in others you can see the consequentialist Miranda. And let's not forget that some of her role is 'mechanical' in that she is supposed to offer opinions and advice, so that line is merely in support of Paragon Shepard.

The thing is, her line has absolutely nothing to do with appreciating people. It's based on notions of sanctity. I'm having a hard time seeing Miranda having those in the first place, but to sacrifice a possible benefit that could save humanity for them? Never.

As for the mechanical role, yeah, that's why I say we get two different Mirandas, she just echoes Shepard here.

[MisterJB]

BringBackNihlus wrote...
That base is too far gone to be used for any good. It would feel like a betrayal, at least to me.

"I won't let fear compromise who I am."

...and an even better quote. from one of my favorite comic book characters of all-time. It even fits better in this situation.

"No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise."

Right. And what exactly did Roscharch accomplish with his Black and White ideals? Stopped a few child murderers and rapists. Goodie.
Meanwhile, Ozymandias, the man who believed the ends justified the means, created World Peace. Granted, he killed hundreds of thousands of people to achieve this but still...World Peace.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:45 .

[Steelcan]

Yannkee wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I don’t see why it should be private.

I’d also disagree with the claim that studying isn’t using, but whatever.

It should be private because it's not Shepard's buisness.

And there is a difference between studying the technology of the base, and using the base. And what happen in ME3 proves that Miranda was right.

. You cannot use events in ME3 as reasoning for a decision in ME2

[Skullheart]

a little off-topic question. I know not many here like the pairings name, but what could be the one for Miranda and Shepard?

Sheranda, Shepanda, Mirishep, Mirashep, Miripard, Mirapard, Lawpard, Shepson, etc.

For some reason Lawpard reminds me this.

Modifié par Skullheart, 07 septembre 2012 - 01:59 .

[Caihn]

Steelcan wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I don’t see why it should be private.

I’d also disagree with the claim that studying isn’t using, but whatever.

It should be private because it's not Shepard's buisness.

And there is a difference between studying the technology of the base, and using the base. And what happen in ME3 proves that Miranda was right.

. You cannot use events in ME3 as reasoning for a decision in ME2

I don't.
It's just an observation (and also a confirmation that she's a very good judge of character).

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I don’t see why it should be private.

I’d also disagree with the claim that studying isn’t using, but whatever.

It should be private because it's not Shepard's buisness.

And there is a difference between studying the technology of the base, and using the base. And what happen in ME3 proves that Miranda was right.

. You cannot use events in ME3 as reasoning for a decision in ME2

Not quite correct. You can use the suspicion or the probability that such events will take place. The main argument about the base is whether the potential evil it can be used for justifies destroying something that could be actually useful in the war. If you can make a good argument that TIM will use the base for more atrocities at the time when you make the decision, that puts weight onto the "destroy" side of the scale.

I think everyone expected TIM to use more humans in experiments there. We just didn't expect the scale. 

@Skullheart:
I hate those conjoined names. All of them.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 septembre 2012 - 02:01 .

[Steelcan]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[/quote]
Not quite correct. You can use the suspicion or the probability that such events will take place. The main argument about the base is whether the potential evil it can be used for justifies destroying something that could be actually useful in the war. If you can make a good argument that TIM will use the base for more atrocities at the time when you make the decision, that puts weight onto the "destroy" side of the scale.
I think everyone expected TIM to use more humans in experiments there. We just didn't expect the scale. 
In a way, you can. If you can reasonably suspect or deny that TIM will commit more atrocities with the base at the time when you decide about the base, then this becomes relevant for the decision.

@Skullheart:
I hate those conjoined names. All of them.

[/quote]. You have no proof of his possible future actions.  It is logically sound to keep the base.  And as for commuting atrocities at Sanctuary I say two words, It worked.

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

Meanwhile, Ozymandias, the man who believed the ends justified the means, created World Peace. Granted, he killed hundreds of thousands of people to achieve this but still...World Peace.

Except, you know, the heavily implied part where he failed to do so.

[Skullheart]

But, the atrocities at Sanctuary happens no mather if the base is destroyed or not. TIM will alway find the reaper signal to control the husks.

[Steelcan]

Skullheart wrote...

But, the atrocities at Sanctuary happens no mather if the base is destroyed or not. TIM will alway find the reaper signal to control the husks.

. And so why throw away data that could help destroy the reapers?

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Meanwhile, Ozymandias, the man who believed the ends justified the means, created World Peace. Granted, he killed hundreds of thousands of people to achieve this but still...World Peace.

Except, you know, the heavily implied part where he failed to do so.

The comic leaves to the reader's imagination whether or not Roscharch's journal was published.
I like to think Ozymandias suceeded.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 septembre 2012 - 02:13 .

[Taboo]

Ozymandias accomplished what he set out to do. Best solution? Who knows. THAT is left up to the viewer to decide. He does succeed.

But for how long? How long will people buy into the "alien" threat?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 07 septembre 2012 - 02:19 .

[MisterJB]

In the movie version, I imagine Dr Manhattan could be convinced to nuke a few cities every now and again to remind people that there is still a common enemy to defend humanity against.
Since he is immortal, he could do this for as long as it takes.

[Taboo]

Ugh. Don't bring up that film. We're talking about the graphic novel. Don't bring Zach Snyder into this. Dr. Manhattan was used in the film as an excuse. The graphic novel used fake aliens created by Ozymandias.

The solution works. But there will always be that ******. That one person who tries to subjugate another. Dr. Manhattan LEAVES this galaxy. He won't be doing much of anything to protect us. I believe his quote was "Nothing ends" or something.

And the question remains:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[Dragon_Claw]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ugh. Don't bring up that film. We're talking about the graphic novel. Don't bring Zach Snyder into this. Dr. Manhattan was used in the film as an excuse. The graphic novel used fake aliens created by Ozymandias.

The solution works. But there will always be that ******. That one person who tries to subjugate another. Dr. Manhattan LEAVES this galaxy. He won't be doing much of anything to protect us. I believe his quote was "Nothing ends" or something.

And the question remains:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

A non-corrupt government...

[MisterJB]

No such thing, I'm afraid.

[Taboo]

Dragon_Claw wrote...

A non-corrupt government...

Which is the entire point of Moore's creation. Moore is an Anarchist. The book is quite cleary Anti-Reagan and he has stated as much. It asks some very interesting questions about how the world works.

Whether you agree with it is up to you. And that's why I love Watchmen.

"They're watching out for us, who's watching out for them?"