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[Jebel Krong]

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Meanwhile, Ozymandias, the man who believed the ends justified the means, created World Peace. Granted, he killed hundreds of thousands of people to achieve this but still...World Peace.

Except, you know, the heavily implied part where he failed to do so.

The comic leaves to the reader's imagination whether or not Roscharch's journal was published.
I like to think Ozymandias suceeded.

Of course you would, because it supports the idea of ends justifying the means.

The reality is that questionable means are rarely justified by the ends, and more importantly, you extremely rarely actually achieve the end with the questionable means, leaving you with nothing but s—

actually they do, you've just been watching too many hollywood movies. The real world is never black and white or so simple.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[BP93]

This country could use another Reagan.

[krukow]

Jebel Krong wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Meanwhile, Ozymandias, the man who believed the ends justified the means, created World Peace. Granted, he killed hundreds of thousands of people to achieve this but still...World Peace.

Except, you know, the heavily implied part where he failed to do so.

The comic leaves to the reader's imagination whether or not Roscharch's journal was published.
I like to think Ozymandias suceeded.

Of course you would, because it supports the idea of ends justifying the means.

The reality is that questionable means are rarely justified by the ends, and more importantly, you extremely rarely actually achieve the end with the questionable means, leaving you with nothing but s—

actually they do, you've just been watching too many hollywood movies. The real worl is never black and white or so simple.

You all do realize that the idea behind watchmen was utterly stupid and didn't factor human nature in at all.  10 years later, when no more squid monsters showed up, people would be back to hating each other and fighting.  That's what they do.

He only achieved world peace if he utterly changed human nature.

He did not.

Thousands and thousands of people died for a few years of peace.

[fiendishchicken]

Are you seriously getting into s politics debate here?

Come on...

[lillitheris]

Jebel Krong wrote...

The reality is that questionable means are rarely justified by the ends, and more importantly, you extremely rarely actually achieve the end with the questionable means, leaving you with nothing but s—

actually they do, you've just been watching too many hollywood movies. The real worl is never black and white or so simple.

Are you serious? The movies in which bad guys always get shot rather than imprisoned and so on? If anything, movies support ends-means thinking.

The world not being black and white—yay for clichés—is precisely why what I said holds true.

Edit: or, expressed differently, choosing questionable means for some ends is precisely why the world is as it is. Problems aren’t solved, and we have to deal with the collateral.

Modifié par lillitheris, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[krukow]

BP93 wrote...

This country could use another Reagan.

The deficit is big enough thank you.

...We could actually use another Clinton (that hurts to say, but it's true).

[jtav]

Could we lay off the politics and bashing other people's choice of ending? Neither is germane to the topic of Miranda.

[Steelcan]

krukow wrote...

BP93 wrote...

This country could use another Reagan.

The deficit is big enough thank you.

...We could actually use another Clinton (that hurts to say, but it's true).

. Let's leave politics for somewhere else

[Jebel Krong]

lillitheris wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

The reality is that questionable means are rarely justified by the ends, and more importantly, you extremely rarely actually achieve the end with the questionable means, leaving you with nothing but s—

actually they do, you've just been watching too many hollywood movies. The real worl is never black and white or so simple.

Are you serious? The movies in which bad guys always get shot rather than imprisoned and so on? If anything, movies support ends-means thinking.

The world not being black and white—yay for clichés—is precisely why what I said holds true.

bollocks. 99% of movies reinforce the cliches: good guys win, do the right thing will always win in the end and all the other behavioural conditioning society loves to throw out to keep everyone in line.

the US unilaterally killing osama was end-justifies the means thinking typical of governments. Or russia/china's stance on syria. Or the state of africa in general.

[Jebel Krong]

krukow wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Meanwhile, Ozymandias, the man who believed the ends justified the means, created World Peace. Granted, he killed hundreds of thousands of people to achieve this but still...World Peace.

Except, you know, the heavily implied part where he failed to do so.

The comic leaves to the reader's imagination whether or not Roscharch's journal was published.
I like to think Ozymandias suceeded.

Of course you would, because it supports the idea of ends justifying the means.

The reality is that questionable means are rarely justified by the ends, and more importantly, you extremely rarely actually achieve the end with the questionable means, leaving you with nothing but s—

actually they do, you've just been watching too many hollywood movies. The real worl is never black and white or so simple.

You all do realize that the idea behind watchmen was utterly stupid and didn't factor human nature in at all.  10 years later, when no more squid monsters showed up, people would be back to hating each other and fighting.  That's what they do.

He only achieved world peace if he utterly changed human nature.

He did not.

Thousands and thousands of people died for a few years of peace.

he didnt do that - what he did was give people something to focus on collectively and it is something that has worked before: communism and west vs. East. How many years did that go on for ~ 50?

[lillitheris]

Jebel Krong wrote...

bollocks. 99% of movies reinforce the cliches: good guys win, do the right thing will always win in the end and all the other behavioural conditioning society loves to throw out to keep everyone in line.

Meh, I’d call it 50-50 at most. Anyway:

the US unilaterally killing osama was end-justifies the means thinking typical of governments. Or russia/china's stance on syria. Or the state of africa in general.

Soo…you’re agreeing with me?

[CrutchCricket]

Aww, missed a discussion of Watchmen? Pity.

Great graphic novel, great film.

I don't see Miranda as being into comics but if someone gave her a copy I'm sure she'd enjoy it.

[flemm]

Jebel Krong wrote...

the US unilaterally killing osama was end-justifies the means thinking typical of governments. Or russia/china's stance on syria. Or the state of africa in general.

Well, what lilitheris is saying isn't really that such thinking doesn't motivate a lot of human behavior, whether personal or political, but rather that it causes more problems than it solves.

Which is a massive discussion that probably can't really be had in detail here. It's hard not to transition from there directly into utopian thinking along the lines of "if everybody behaved properly, we wouldn't have all these problems." Of course that's true in some sort of hypothetical way, but they don't, never have, and can't be counted upon to do so. Anyway, there are no easy answers to this.

As to how this type of thing works in a fantasy game like ME, well, a big part of the fantasy is letting what "feels right" also be what "works best" a lot of the time. I don't think that's a bad thing, necessarily, though it explains in part why people tend to dislike the endings, because suddenly the climactic choice really doesn't work that way.

You could see this especially in some of the endings-related rants on these forums when the sh*t started to hit the fan a few months back. People would go on and on, but basically what it boiled down to was: "I want to be able to press the button I want to press and win like I pretty much always could before."

Modifié par flemm, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[Jebel Krong]

lillitheris wrote...

the US unilaterally killing osama was end-justifies the means thinking typical of governments. Or russia/china's stance on syria. Or the state of africa in general.

Soo…you’re agreeing with me?

depends on the situation but i actually agree with a lot of ends-justifies-the-means decision-making, just not that done by politicians.

[Ieldra]

Just played Miranda's ME2 romance again. The kiss scene is really the best Miranda scene in the trilogy. It always makes me smile.

Now off to my crew-killing N7 assignments so I can get all of Legion's dialogue.

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

the US unilaterally killing osama was end-justifies the means thinking typical of governments. Or russia/china's stance on syria. Or the state of africa in general.

Well, what lilitheris is saying isn't really that such thinking doesn't motivate a lot of human behavior, whether personal or political, but rather that it causes more problems than it solves.

Which is a massive discussion that probably can't really be had in detail here. It's hard not to transition from there directly into utopian thinking along the lines of "if everybody behaved properly, we wouldn't have all these problems." Of course that's true in some sort of hypothetical way, but they don't, never have, and can't be counted upon to do so. Anyway, there are no easy answers to this.

As to how this type of thing works in a fantasy game like ME, well, a big part of the fantasy is letting what "feels right" also be what "works best" a lot of the time. I don't think that's a bad thing, necessarily, though it explains in part why people tend to dislike the endings, because suddenly the climactic choice really doesn't work that way.

You could see this especially in some of the endings-related rants on these forums when the sh*t started to hit the fan a few months back. People would go on and on, but basically what it boiled down to was: "I want to be able to press the button I want to press and win like I pretty much always could before."

Well there is a certain percentage of the fan base that were conditioned to expect a clean victory choice. That's just the thin end of the wedge reagrsing the endings though.

[flemm]

wright1978 wrote...

Well there is a certain percentage of the fan base that were conditioned to expect a clean victory choice. That's just the thin end of the wedge reagrsing the endings though.

Bolded is what I was referring to, yeah. You're right about the second part, of course.

[fiendishchicken]

flemm wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Well there is a certain percentage of the fan base that were conditioned to expect a clean victory choice. That's just the thin end of the wedge reagrsing the endings though.

Bolded is what I was referring to, yeah. You're right about the second part, of course.

I know that's what I wanted. I was sure there would be something, anything, that could resemble that. no such luck.

[flemm]

fiendishchicken wrote...


I know that's what I wanted. I was sure there would be something, anything, that could resemble that. no such luck.

Yeah. And I'm not saying you were wrong to want it. Just that most of the series is basically designed so that it was expected, people didn't get it, and were upset.

Modifié par flemm, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:56 .

[jtav]

And thank God for it. I'm happy with my ending, in it's bittersweet way. Besides, I got the cool slide.

Modifié par jtav, 07 septembre 2012 - 06:58 .

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...


I know that's what I wanted. I was sure there would be something, anything, that could resemble that. no such luck.

Yeah. And I'm not saying you were wrong to want it. Just that most of the series is basically designed so that it was expected, people didn't get it, and were upset.

Remember having a debate with prominent member(who since left after endings) regarding there needing to be a sacrifice in order to rid galaxy of reapers. As much as i love the suicide mission in me2 i do think someone should have died during hold the line portion no matter what. Might have prepared some people better.

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

And thank God for it. I'm happy with my ending, in it's bittersweet way. Besides, I got the cool slide.

I didn't fight my ass off through 3 games for a "bittersweet" ending. I wanted the unicorns crapping rainbows over golden waterfalls ending. 

You can keep your bittersweet ending if that works for you. That crap doesn't fly with me.

The ending where Shepard definitively beats the Reapers, lives, and has Miranda there for them to start their life together, rebuildng Cerberus into Phoenix, and building upon their life and love for each other.

How is that bad?

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:03 .

[CrutchCricket]

fiendishchicken wrote...
I didn't fight my ass off through 3 games for a "bittersweet" ending. I wanted the unicorns crapping rainbows over golden waterfalls ending. 

You can keep your bittersweet ending if that works for you. That crap doesn't fly with me.

The ending where Shepard definitively beats the Reapers, lives, and has Miranda there for them to start their life together, rebuildng Cerberus into Phoenix, and building upon their life and love for each other.

How is that bad?

Not enough art.

[hot_heart]

wright1978 wrote...
Remember having a debate with prominent member(who since left after endings) regarding there needing to be a sacrifice in order to rid galaxy of reapers. As much as i love the suicide mission in me2 i do think someone should have died during hold the line portion no matter what. Might have prepared some people better.

I think a Virmire-type situation would have been good. I was expecting it until the in-game medals said different...

[flemm]

wright1978 wrote...
Remember having a debate with prominent member(who since left after endings) regarding there needing to be a sacrifice in order to rid galaxy of reapers. As much as i love the suicide mission in me2 i do think someone should have died during hold the line portion no matter what. Might have prepared some people better.

The Suicide Mission is really interesting because it's amazing in itself... but also an incredibly awful ending for the second game of a trilogy designed like this.

I also don't think the way the squadmate deaths work is its strong point. It's more the command decisions, atmosphere, epic feel and climactic nature of it.

In retrospect, I think it would have been better to design it so that you could only actually beat the game once certain conditions had been met. Conditions that would have simplifed imported games a lot, in essence. But you could have built a required sacrifice into that as well.

Ironically, the ME2 Suicide Mission structure would have worked perfectly for the ending of the third game in a trilogy like this

Modifié par flemm, 07 septembre 2012 - 07:15 .