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[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

jtav wrote...

And what Miranda espoused was definitely a lighter shade of gray. A lot of us were 100% behind the vision of humanity's STG. And it's clearly something she actually believes in, not a rationalization she uses because they give her a sense of belonging/protect Oriana.

Then she’s either wrong, or stupid.

Cerberus is a confirmed, actual terrorist organization. This is an indisputable, known fact to every being in the ME universe.

I eagerly await some kind of a rational pretzelification explaining how she was unaware of this all.

You answered your own question. Nice word usage though.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 11 septembre 2012 - 07:35 .

[hot_heart]

Taboo-XX wrote...
That was a Pink Floyd reference not an Insane Clown Posse reference. 

I know, that's why I said 'two artists'.

I just wanted to ruin it for you.

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
I eagerly await some kind of a rational pretzelification explaining how she was unaware of this all.

She's aware of how it's perceived, and discusses this in some detail. Her idea is that there is more to it than that, or that there should be.

It's fine if she ends up being wrong about that, as far as that particular organisation is concerned, though. That doesn't really matter. What matters then is that she, and other like-minded individuals (of which we know there are quite a few), oppose Cerberus in ME3 openly and on principle. Ideally together, in some sort of ex-Cerberus team.

Modifié par flemm, 11 septembre 2012 - 07:36 .

[Taboo]

hot_heart wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
That was a Pink Floyd reference not an Insane Clown Posse reference. 

I know, that's why I said 'two artists'.

I just wanted to ruin it for you.

Yes I missed that and I apologize.

[jtav]

lillitheris wrote...

jtav wrote...

And what Miranda espoused was definitely a lighter shade of gray. A lot of us were 100% behind the vision of humanity's STG. And it's clearly something she actually believes in, not a rationalization she uses because they give her a sense of belonging/protect Oriana.

Then she’s either wrong, or stupid.

Cerberus is a confirmed, actual terrorist organization. This is an indisputable, known fact to every being in the ME universe.

I eagerly await some kind of a rational pretzelification explaining how she was unaware of this all.

I've never denied she was a terrorist. If she were a real person, I'd want her in jail.  But there are terrorist organizations throughout history that have sympathetic or semi-sympathetic goals and eventually morphed into something semi-legitimate. Others had to be utterly repudiated. In ME2, it was possible to see Cerberus as the first type. In ME3, they are squarely the second type.

[hot_heart]

I think the 'cost' of achieving something is a major theme throughout ME2. It comes down to what sort of price you're willing to pay to meet your goals.

Though, I'm just talking off the top of my head here. I am focusing on something else...

In fact, I'm probably just spouting off some screenwriting 101 stuff. It's all part of character growth and such.

Modifié par hot_heart, 11 septembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[flemm]

hot_heart wrote...

I think the 'cost' of achieving something is a major theme throughout ME2. It comes down to what sort of price you're willing to pay to meet your goals.

That's true. But that's partly because ME2's world is less of a fantasyland than ME3's world is trying to be. ME3 is trying to be more like Star Wars, where the universe itself has a built-in morality.

There are some traces of that type of thing in ME2, but they are relatively minor.

Modifié par flemm, 11 septembre 2012 - 07:45 .

[hot_heart]

The cost in ME3 is death. Always death.

[Taboo]

hot_heart wrote...

The cost in ME3 is death. Always death.

The first thing I thought of this was the Eye of Sauron...

Hmmmmm.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 11 septembre 2012 - 07:48 .

[hot_heart]

Not a Bowie or Pink Floyd song? Are you feeling alright?!

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I eagerly await some kind of a rational pretzelification explaining how she was unaware of this all.

She's aware of how it's perceived, and discusses this in some detail. Her idea is that there is more to it than that, or that there should be.

It's fine if she ends up being wrong about that, as far as that particular organisation is concerned, though. That doesn't really matter. What matters then is that she, and other like-minded individuals (of which we know there are quite a few), oppose Cerberus in ME3 openly and on principle. Ideally together, in some sort of ex-Cerberus team.

TIM is the problem not Cerberus as a idea and certainly not Miranda's perception of Cerberus. Now the fact he has complete control and can shift it so radically between ME2 and ME3 is clearly an issue a reformed cerberus would have to find a solution to.
As for their methods, well they certainly do cross whether other fear to tread. Lazarus is clearly a huge breakthrough and no doubt the science behind Lazarus was attained by means the Alliance(at least openly) would not be able to support. However at other times there really does seem to have been a lack of any reasonable checks on operations going off piste.

[Taboo]

hot_heart wrote...

Not a Bowie or Pink Floyd song? Are you feeling alright?!

It's The Heart's Filthy Lesson I'm afraid.



Better?

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

jtav wrote...

And what Miranda espoused was definitely a lighter shade of gray. A lot of us were 100% behind the vision of humanity's STG. And it's clearly something she actually believes in, not a rationalization she uses because they give her a sense of belonging/protect Oriana.

Then she’s either wrong, or stupid.

Cerberus is a confirmed, actual terrorist organization. This is an indisputable, known fact to every being in the ME universe.

I eagerly await some kind of a rational pretzelification explaining how she was unaware of this all.

I've never denied she was a terrorist. If she were a real person, I'd want her in jail.  But there are terrorist organizations throughout history that have sympathetic or semi-sympathetic goals and eventually morphed into something semi-legitimate. Others had to be utterly repudiated. In ME2, it was possible to see Cerberus as the first type. In ME3, they are squarely the second type.

Terrorist my ass.

The words you're looking for are "decentralized isolated cells".

I had the idea that different cells work for a "different" Cerberus (different visions) as early as the 800s I believe with only TIM truly knowing the extent and vision of what Cerberus was (as he was the one shaping it).

Miranda and the Lazarus cell absolutely have plasuible deniability. If you want to imagine the rest of Cerberus as the SS and the Empire rolled into one, be my guest.

Dismissing the very real benefits of Cerberus in favor of the very real atrocities it committed or vice versa is naive at best.

[Ghost]

Cricket we will restore Kasumi thread's glory!

[CrutchCricket]

Ghost1017 wrote...

Cricket we will restore Kasumi thread's glory!

I wasn't aware its glory had gone missing.

Anytime the Kasumi thread disappears it's not gone. It's just cloaked for a Shadow Strike;)

[Ghost]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...

Cricket we will restore Kasumi thread's glory!

I wasn't aware its glory had gone missing.

Anytime the Kasumi thread disappears it's not gone. It's just cloaked for a Shadow Strike;)

Almost got you! 

[Ghost]

 

[krukow]

Ghost1017 wrote...

 snip

That is the closest I've seen mass effect come to giving a character pancake butt.  I'll just say it.

Unrealistically thin midsection /=/ good butt.

[Steelcan]

Cerberus is humanity, there is greed, violence, terrible acts, but there is advancement. Scientific break throughs, military strength, the will to use any means to achieve one's goal, a never say impossible attitude. They are the epitome of grey. Their actions are terrorist to some groups, namely aliens, others see them as humanity's defense against the galaxy. Sadly in ME3 this aspect was lost. TIM became space Hitler leading space ****s

[Taboo]

Are you prepared for the return of The Thin White Duke? The hotel lobby here wasn't...

It'll be time to start over post-war. Miranda and Shepard can do that. And it won't have to be as...off putting as Cerberus can be at times. New organization representing a multitude of ideals. Someone has to study the dead Reapers and deal with the Leviathans.

It's too late to be grateful! It's too late to be late again! It's too late to be hateful!

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

You know what would have been a good ending?

*Spoiler Warning*










Something similar to The Dark Knight Rises. Shepard defeats the Reapers, and people believe him to be dead. At the funeral, Joker mourns, believing to have failed Shepard. And like Afred finding Bruce and Selina Kyle at a diner, Joker finds Shepard and Miri at some place, nods, and leaves without saying a word. The Question is, would Shepard and Miri be able to use something similar to a Blank Slate to change their identities?

[Steelcan]

I think Commander Shepard is way too famous for that to work

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Steelcan wrote...

I think Commander Shepard is way too famous for that to work

Maybe somewhere not too public.

[Taboo]

^ ARE YOU SURE THAT ISN'T OOC?

Hell if I know Luis. I've spent my day wandering about in the middle of this town. And I'll be there TOMORROW as well.

It is something to think about though. What would Shepard and Miranda do about publicity? I mean, Shepard being who he is and all and she being the former second in command of Cerberus. Once people learn more it'll be difficult to keep the rabble off.

I mean she's changed and all but the public will have that image of Cerberus still fresh in their minds. They'll have to tread lightly for a while I think.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 12 septembre 2012 - 01:32 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

They'd probably find a way. Miri is smart. Like I said...maybe not in public.