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[TheMarshal]

MegaBadExample wrote...

I only say that because she's got a heavy set of plot armour and her own DLC. Liara fans will probably get the most out of the romance in ME3, more so than anyone else.

Liara just can't die! I'd say she'll be there for most of ME3. (If not all.) She's the damn shadow broker, of course her role is going to be freaking huge.

Hopefully she's the Shadow Broker...  All the evidence we've seen about her in ME3 so far has been as "squadmate" and not "all-knowing goddess of information".

[TMA LIVE]

A lot of her fans believe Miranda will take over Cerberus in ME3 if she survived. I didn't like this idea because it was predictable. So I started thinking about what would be better. I think a better direction would be to try to have a normal life, but that got shot down. So I thought, "Well, what if she took another job besides Cerberus?" Alliance seems another direction that's predictable. So what else?

I then popped into the Miranda thread on BSN, read something about Liara's role as the broker. And then I thought "Well, what if Miranda becomes the Shadow Broker?". Like say, in ME3, if Miranda's still alive, you have the option to have her take over, and Liara's free from that service. She's an intelligence gatherer, and director of projects. She spends most of her time at her desk doing reports. And a life of crime isn't beyond her, considering she's working for Cerberus. If you ever needed a replacement for the Shadow Broker role (besides Feron) she's it.

[MisterJB]

Liara's sloppy seconds? Can't say I like the idea.

[enayasoul]

You count me as one of Miranda's fan that DOES NOT want Miranda to take over CERBERUS in any shape or form. I am not against Miranda working in the intel business/research what have you... maybe even working for Liara as a Shadow broker agent. Would be neat if Shep and Miranda start their own mercenary group.

Cerberus has a reputation I do not want to be associated with any more than I have to be. It seems all my maleShep did was clean up their damn messes for the Alliance and for Cerberus alike.

My Maleshep was all Alliance at the start of ME1, romanced Ashley and reluctantly worked with Cerberus because he really didn't have a choice in the matter. Now that he's fallen for a Cerberus Officer. That has changed his view only slightly. He trusts Miranda but doesn't trust Cerberus or the Illusive man. They've crossed the line. I doubt my MaleShep has any love for the Alliance after the "Arrival" incident... It will be interesting how ME3 brings it all together.

[TheMarshal]

I don't want Miranda to take over Cerberus or the Shadow Broker role. I want her to build up her own organization, with hand-picked operatives. And if I could figure out a way to do it without coming across as condescending, I'd want my Shepard to offer her some of the Shadow Broker's resources to help get her started.

But I don't think there's any way to do that.

[KamikazeShepard]

enayasoul wrote...

You count me as one of Miranda's fan that DOES NOT want Miranda to take over CERBERUS in any shape or form. I am not against Miranda working in the intel business/research what have you... maybe even working for Liara as a Shadow broker agent. Would be neat if Shep and Miranda start their own mercenary group.

Cerberus has a reputation I do not want to be associated with any more than I have to be. It seems all my maleShep did was clean up their damn messes for the Alliance and for Cerberus alike.

My Maleshep was all Alliance at the start of ME1, romanced Ashley and reluctantly worked with Cerberus because he really didn't have a choice in the matter. Now that he's fallen for a Cerberus Officer. That has changed his view only slightly. He trusts Miranda but doesn't trust Cerberus or the Illusive man. They've crossed the line. I doubt my MaleShep has any love for the Alliance after the "Arrival" incident... It will be interesting how ME3 brings it all together.

I agree everything you said. And my shep is very similar to yours. I'm so sick of doing this and that for Alliance and Cerberus. I would love to see Miranda get promoted to Spectre status and then Me and Miri just help people around the galaxy as we see fit. That or form our own Human Organization that is more Competent than Cerberus and Alliance. 

[MisterJB]

I must admit, I never understood why some people act as if Cerberus and anything associated with it is tainted. I can see Miranda doing some serious renovations on the organization, but why shouldn't she use its resources as a starting point if possible?

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

I must admit, I never understood why some people act as if Cerberus and anything associated with it is tainted. I can see Miranda doing some serious renovations on the organization, but why shouldn't she use its resources as a starting point if possible?

This. I'm not exactly a big fan of Cerberus's methods and some of their operations, but the organization itself has a lot of contacts and resources. Miranda could use that resources to change things.
Not that I'm contrary at the idea of Miranda starting a new organization, but I find both the idea appealing. Other than the fact that I really like the idea of Miranda being called The Illusive Woman

Modifié par hhh89, 04 août 2011 - 10:58 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

What resources would she use?

[The Elder King]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

What resources would she use?

Money, ships, bases (or facilities, I don't know what is the correct word), scientists, contacts with influential people (if they survived) and within the Alliance. Though in this scenario we'll have to see how much of Cerberus is being destroyed in ME3.

[TheMarshal]

MisterJB wrote...

I must admit, I never understood why some people act as if Cerberus and anything associated with it is tainted. I can see Miranda doing some serious renovations on the organization, but why shouldn't she use its resources as a starting point if possible?

I just don't want her to inherit anything, not to mention that enough is bad about Cerberus even without the stigma surrounding the name.  Just having that name attached to anything is automatically going to attract the same type of people that Cerberus classic did, which is to say xenophobic, impatient, and incompetent.

With her own organization that she built from the ground up (and surely she would have had her own connections in the Cerberus information network) she would be free of the burden of Cerberus' past.  She could actually create an organization that put humanity's advancement at the forefront without the false pretense of needing to subjugate other races to do it.

[MisterJB]

 TheMarshal wrote...
Just having that name attached to anything

She can just change the name.
 

is automatically going to attract the same type of people that Cerberus classic did, which is to say xenophobic,

If Miranda becomes The Illusive Woman, she alone will decide who can be accepted into the new Cerberus.
Besides, xenophobic people have their uses. You just have to choose carefully which missions to assign them.

impatient,

Actually, the impatient one is The Illusive Man. It's because of him constantly pressuring the Cell leaders that things like Project Overlord happen.

incompetent.

Cerberus is like the CIA. You only hear about it when they fail. That doesn't make them incompetent.

With her own organization that she built from the ground up (and surely she would have had her own connections in the Cerberus information network) she would be free of the burden of Cerberus' past. 

Her own connections only go so far. It' either start a multi planetary organization from almost nothing or salvage what remains of Cerberus and deal with its past. To me, the choice seems obvious.
Also, in your last post you mentioned giving her some of the Shadow Broker's resources. However, it's not like the Shadow Broker organization doesn't have its own checkered past.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Anyone remember this, the Miri Trailer?:

To be honest I saw this trailer after I started playing my first playthrough of ME2, when I first got into the ME Series.

I first saw Miri in the Shepard TV Spot. I remember it like it was yesterday.

It's sad when I think about the times before then. I didn't know too much about ME, and I didn't know who Miri or Yvonne were. 

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 04 août 2011 - 11:44 .

[TheMarshal]

MisterJB wrote...

 TheMarshal wrote...
Just having that name attached to anything

She can just change the name.
 

is automatically going to attract the same type of people that Cerberus classic did, which is to say xenophobic,

If Miranda becomes The Illusive Woman, she alone will decide who can be accepted into the new Cerberus.
Besides, xenophobic people have their uses. You just have to choose carefully which missions to assign them.

impatient,

Actually, the impatient one is The Illusive Man. It's because of him constantly pressuring the Cell leaders that things like Project Overlord happen.

incompetent.

Cerberus is like the CIA. You only hear about it when they fail. That doesn't make them incompetent.

With her own organization that she built from the ground up (and surely she would have had her own connections in the Cerberus information network) she would be free of the burden of Cerberus' past. 

Her own connections only go so far. It' either start a multi planetary organization from almost nothing or salvage what remains of Cerberus and deal with its past. To me, the choice seems obvious.
Also, in your last post you mentioned giving her some of the Shadow Broker's resources. However, it's not like the Shadow Broker organization doesn't have its own checkered past.

Not give her the Shadow Broker's resources.  More like let her use them to properly vett the people she wants on her team.  I'm sure there are dossiers on just about anyone of any significance or capability.  Which would be helpful in weeding out the people who are in Cerberus who are incompetent, impatient, or just there for purely xenophobic reasons.  Changing a name doesn't change the innards or the history, and I think there are enough systemic issues with Cerberus to warrant a purge at the very least, though I'm generally a proponent of starting things over when they've gone too far astray.

[jtav]

So I put my money where my mouth was and wrote some alternate romance conversations. No branches because it's harder to read and because this is pretty much off the top of my head)

Miranda: I... wanted to apologize. I didn't fully believe you'd be up to the task. And it seems I was wrong.
M: I thought that your unorthodox methods would be a liability and nothing would justify the resources we put into Lazarus. But you’ve done more than I would have thought possible.
Shepard: (smiling) Could you repeat that? For a moment there it sounded like you were admitting you were wrong.
M: I guess I deserved that after all the time I spent lecturing you. You had every right to spit in my face when I asked for your help, but you went out of your way to help me instead. No one else would have done the same. Oriana owes you her life.
S: I didn’t do it for Oriana. I did it for you. (cups her cheek and traces his thumb down her jaw)
M (edges away, clearly flustered) You’ve been a good…a good friend.
S: I think we’re more than friends.
(He leans in to kiss her. For a moment, it seems she’ll pull away, but instead she deepens the kiss. Shepard, not Miranda breaks the kiss. They stare at each other.)
M: That was…enjoyable.
S: I know I enjoyed it. (suddenly serious) So what now?
M: (snaps out of her trance and walks back to her desk, agitated once more). I don’t know. Give me time to think.
S: Ever thought of not thinking for once in your life?
M: There’s so much more than our personal feelings at stake here! (softens) I’ll talk to you soon, I promise.

--

S: Got a minute?
M: (sighs, is clearly not looking forward to this conversation) I knew you’d be back. I’ve thought it over and…
S: And?
M: And we can’t do it. You and I know better than anyone how critical it is that the Collectors be defeated. We can’t let anything get in the way of that. Especially not something as juvenile as hormones. (she crosses to the window and stares out)
S: It’s a hell of a lot more than hormones to me.
M: (doesn’t turn around, her voice becomes icier as she speaks, reverting to her demeanor in the first part of the game) All the more reason to be professional. Entering the Omega-4 relay is virtual suicide. I may have to sacrifice you or you may have to sacrifice me for the good of the mission.
S: The mission? This isn’t about the mission. You’re scared of getting hurt, aren’t you? Afraid that maybe you’re more human than you thought and your genetically engineered heart breaks just like everybody else’s.
M: Don’t presume to—as if you know anything about that!
S: [background/ME1 romance specific dialogue Ex:] I watched my whole unit die. Good men. And every morning I wonder if I’m betraying them. Especially when it comes to you.
M: Akuze? (the ice melts) I almost forgot for a moment.
S: (charming smile, but a hint of desperation in his voice) Come on. Promise it ‘ll be worth the risk. (He places a hand on her shoulder and turns her to face him. He leans in for another kiss)
M: (holds up her hand, thoroughly miserable) No, I can’t. Not while the Collectors and Reapers are still out there. But if we manage to survive… (runs a hand up and down his chest)
S: You’d better make it worth my while, Ms. Lawson
M: Oh, I will, Commander Shepard. I will.

I can do a "locker" consummation, and LOTSB conversation if anyone wants.

[Shotokanguy]

[quote]jtav wrote...

So I put my money where my mouth was and wrote some alternate romance conversations. No branches because it's harder to read and because this is pretty much off the top of my head)

[quote]Miranda: I... wanted to apologize. I didn't fully believe you'd be up to the task. And it seems I was wrong.
M: I thought that your unorthodox methods would be a liability and nothing would justify the resources we put into Lazarus. But you’ve done more than I would have thought possible.
Shepard: (smiling) Could you repeat that? For a moment there it sounded like you were admitting you were wrong.
M: I guess I deserved that after all the time I spent lecturing you. You had every right to spit in my face when I asked for your help, but you went out of your way to help me instead. No one else would have done the same. Oriana owes you her life.
S: I didn’t do it for Oriana. I did it for you. (cups her cheek and traces his thumb down her jaw)[/quote]

WHOA. Shepard coming on way too strong there, IMO.



Anyway, since you all were talking about Cerberus and the Alliance, I was curious if any of you read that Mass Effect 2 dissertation, concerning all the links and developing plotlines in the universe. The Cerberus-Alliance link is probably one of the more interesting things.


Uh, what the heck? Why is my post showing up inside the quote box? What did I do wrong here...

Modifié par Shotokanguy, 05 août 2011 - 12:54 .

[enayasoul]

Interesting but no, needs work. I prefer what has already been written by bioware.

Modifié par enayasoul, 05 août 2011 - 01:05 .

[jeweledleah]

its interesting Jtav. I think in a first conversation she's almost too apologetic. I like the second part though, very much.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...
I can do a "locker" consummation, and LOTSB conversation if anyone wants.

That was a great alternative to what we have now (though I still like the romance as is).
And yeah I'd like to see the rest of this, since you posted earlier that there would be a part where she goes back on her earlier decision.

[KamikazeShepard]

jtav wrote...

So I put my money where my mouth was and wrote some alternate romance conversations. No branches because it's harder to read and because this is pretty much off the top of my head)

Miranda: I... wanted to apologize. I didn't fully believe you'd be up to the task. And it seems I was wrong.
M: I thought that your unorthodox methods would be a liability and nothing would justify the resources we put into Lazarus. But you’ve done more than I would have thought possible.
Shepard: (smiling) Could you repeat that? For a moment there it sounded like you were admitting you were wrong.
M: I guess I deserved that after all the time I spent lecturing you. You had every right to spit in my face when I asked for your help, but you went out of your way to help me instead. No one else would have done the same. Oriana owes you her life.
S: I didn’t do it for Oriana. I did it for you. (cups her cheek and traces his thumb down her jaw)
M (edges away, clearly flustered) You’ve been a good…a good friend.
S: I think we’re more than friends.
(He leans in to kiss her. For a moment, it seems she’ll pull away, but instead she deepens the kiss. Shepard, not Miranda breaks the kiss. They stare at each other.)
M: That was…enjoyable.
S: I know I enjoyed it. (suddenly serious) So what now?
M: (snaps out of her trance and walks back to her desk, agitated once more). I don’t know. Give me time to think.
S: Ever thought of not thinking for once in your life?
M: There’s so much more than our personal feelings at stake here! (softens) I’ll talk to you soon, I promise.

--

S: Got a minute?
M: (sighs, is clearly not looking forward to this conversation) I knew you’d be back. I’ve thought it over and…
S: And?
M: And we can’t do it. You and I know better than anyone how critical it is that the Collectors be defeated. We can’t let anything get in the way of that. Especially not something as juvenile as hormones. (she crosses to the window and stares out)
S: It’s a hell of a lot more than hormones to me.
M: (doesn’t turn around, her voice becomes icier as she speaks, reverting to her demeanor in the first part of the game) All the more reason to be professional. Entering the Omega-4 relay is virtual suicide. I may have to sacrifice you or you may have to sacrifice me for the good of the mission.
S: The mission? This isn’t about the mission. You’re scared of getting hurt, aren’t you? Afraid that maybe you’re more human than you thought and your genetically engineered heart breaks just like everybody else’s.
M: Don’t presume to—as if you know anything about that!
S: [background/ME1 romance specific dialogue Ex:] I watched my whole unit die. Good men. And every morning I wonder if I’m betraying them. Especially when it comes to you.
M: Akuze? (the ice melts) I almost forgot for a moment.
S: (charming smile, but a hint of desperation in his voice) Come on. Promise it ‘ll be worth the risk. (He places a hand on her shoulder and turns her to face him. He leans in for another kiss)
M: (holds up her hand, thoroughly miserable) No, I can’t. Not while the Collectors and Reapers are still out there. But if we manage to survive… (runs a hand up and down his chest)
S: You’d better make it worth my while, Ms. Lawson
M: Oh, I will, Commander Shepard. I will.

I can do a "locker" consummation, and LOTSB conversation if anyone wants.

The first convo was a little forced and it felt like it was moving way too fast. I loved the second convo though. That was well done. 

[goofyomnivore]

@jtav

Second one is really great. First one needs some tiny tweaks. It is moving a little fast/kind of forced for my taste.

[Ieldra]

About Miranda taking over Cerberus:

(1) Regardless of whether or not the name is kept, the resources - space stations, ships, data collections, people, should any of that survive the war - are there to be taken. Someone will take them, you can be sure of that. It would be stupid to leave all that for others to claim, and Miranda is not stupid. It would also be stupid to start from scratch when a treasure trove of resources is available for the taking.
Note that there isn't any significant difference between starting a new organization and claiming some resources of the old for it and taking over the old organization and removing what you don't want from it.

(2) Miranda might have to purge some extreme elements from the organization, but then, maybe she need not. These people have their uses - for instances, xenophobes can always be expected to be loyal when on a mission in non-human territory. Regarding the scientists, it appears most were driven into the more extreme experiments by TIM's perceived impatience. Remove the incompetents and establish some guidelines about what can be done and what not and things will likely not escalate again.

(3) I do not want Miranda to be subordinate to Liara (or to other team members) in any way. For that reason, I would hate it if she came to work for the Shadow Broker. I wouldn't mind them exchanging specific information and helping out where applicable, but ultimately the Shadow Broker has a different agenda than "humanity's STG".

(4) it is possible that the name "Cerberus" has to be discarded. But then, maybe it would be better to retain it. I don't know nor do I particularly care, but regardless of that, the term "Illusive Woman" has a certain mystique to it. I would like it if Miranda gained that moniker.

[Ieldra]

@jtav:
Your alternative romance conversations:

The first part has several issues. For one thing, how are Shepard's methods "unorthodox"? Then, her apology, starting with "I guess I deserved that...." is *way* too strong. "You had every right to spit in my face?" - no, that's not Miranda, and "no one else would've done the same" is putting it way too strongly.
I do *not* think Shepard comes on too strongly, though. For those who think so: this is the alternative to the scene with the kiss - that Oriana was mentioned could lead to the impression that this is meant to happen directly after the LM. That's not so.

The second part is nice, except that "We can’t let anything get in the way of that. Especially not something as juvenile as hormones. " is awkwardly phrased. I especially like the second half of the exchange.

[atheelogos]

Why all this talk of Miranda running Cerberus? For the vast majority of players, she left the organization at the end of ME2. And whats so bad about her working for/with Liara? I think they'd make a great pair.

[Ieldra]

atheelogos wrote...
Why all this talk of Miranda running Cerberus? For the vast majority of players, she left the organization at the end of ME2. And whats so bad about her working for/with Liara? I think they'd make a great pair.

We are talking about what happens after Cerberus has been defeated in ME3. One scenario favored by some fans (including me) is that Miranda will take over and take Cerberus in a new direction, make it more like the salarian STG and less like a den of mad scientists.

Miranda working for Liara is bad because I would dislike it very much if Miranda is subordinate to Liara. There are some here who share that dislike and some who don't. But I dislike the idea quite a bit, to phrase it carefully. Liara has already been elevated to the position of Most Important Team Member ™ by the fact that she's the only one who cannot die and then giving her the most powerful intelligence network in the galaxy. To make Miranda subordinate to her would be absolutely the last straw. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 août 2011 - 08:27 .