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[lillitheris]

hot_heart wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I’m going to say that Miranda doesn’t enjoy symbolism in any form.

What?! I was pretty sure that's one of the first questions in the Cerberus job interview though.

TIM: “So, we’re called Cerberus because we guard humanity like…”

Miranda:

Edit: how is it that the same picture is apropos again?

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 septembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

This thread...needs a kick in the pants.

I suppose uniforms are going to be tricky.

Does anyone have an particular opinion on those or am I just being too specific now? We have everything else. A name. A station. A logo.

. What colors are the logo?

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
That's why I don't think the people who want an uber zealous Cerberus Miranda are never going to be satisfied.

I don't want that. I just want some evidence that the ideals which brought her to Cerberus still exist, that she cares about something beyond the personal and hasn't been made into Stereotypical Good Woman #1873466663. I want that she retains some of what made her controversial instead of being loaded so much with reactionary stereotypes that all individuality vanishes in the mush and cheese.

Yeah, I'm exaggerating. But that's the core of the problem.

That isn't a part of the character anymore, at least in the same capacity. She's been tempered quite a bit.

Not tempered, Taboo. Mutilated.

Wave of Mutilation...

The ideals are stilll there. They simply need to be brought out again on screen. She's out doing some very unscrupulous things and I know you know that.
You just have to, you know, head canon it. 

That isn't mutilation, that's simple laziness.

I'm suprised that you support the humanization of the Reapers but not Miranda.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 14 septembre 2012 - 01:00 .

[Ieldra]

Taboo, that's because I don't jump on this bandwagon of "being all emotional and mushy is more human than being distanced from most people". I don't think there are many stereotypes I hate more than this. I like that Miranda keeps her distance from most people, excepting only Shepard and Oriana and maybe one or two others we don't know. She doesn't appear to have a problem with it either.

Being emotional is not, as such, a virtue, damn it. And I hate that stories always paint it so.

As for the Reapers, I don't support their humanization. In fact, I want them to stay distinctly non-human. I just want to take them out of the "abomination" corner and see them as valid life forms. Another stereotype I dislike is that all valid life forms must be psychologically similar to humans.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 septembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[Taboo]

Yes, well, that isn't my impression. And it certainly isn't the impression from the people I studied under and the people I studied. And this is a European train of thought mind you, not an American one. Nothing annoys me more than dehumanization.

The issue is not introversion. It's a complete inability to connect at all. I love introverted characters but I take notice when the problem is more severe than that.

Do you know who Michelangelo Antonioni is? His characters are much the same way. The issue is not introversion. It's a complete inability to connect to the world at. They are focused on things like work (!), men, women, sex, and sometimes just life being boring in general. They never achieve "normality" but some of them to find what is necessary.

Balance.

This isn't at all a conservative viewpoint either. Antonioni was a Leftist. Big time. In fact most of the people I take influence from espouse Leftist ideals. Especially Nagisa Oshima and Michelangelo Antonioni.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo, that's because I don't jump on this bandwagon of "being all emotional and mushy is more human than being distanced from most people". I don't think there are many stereotypes I hate more than this. I like that Miranda keeps her distance from most people, excepting only Shepard and Oriana and maybe one or two others we don't know. She doesn't appear to have a problem with it either.

Being emotional is not, as such, a virtue, damn it. And I hate that stories always paint it so.

As for the Reapers, I don't support their humanization. In fact, I want them to stay distinctly non-human. I just want to take them out of the "abomination" corner and see them as valid life forms. Another stereotype I dislike is that all valid life forms must be psychologically similar to humans.

Agree very much with the first half of your post.

Disagree about taking Reapers out of abomination corner though. They are responsible for mass murder on a such a huge scale that i feel they are something that needs to be removed.

[Taboo]

The issue is not introversion. No one is lambasting that. Nor is anyone chalking things up to "being all emotional and mushy". That's something you've assigned to the role.

She's still very much introverted but she's made improvements with basic connection.

If that's too much for you I honestly don't know how she'll ever be fixed for you.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
The issue is not introversion. No one is lambasting that. Nor is anyone chalking things up to "being all emotional and mushy". That's something you've assigned to the role.

She's still very much introverted but she's made improvements with basic connection.

If that's too much for you I honestly don't know how she'll ever be fixed for you.

You see, I like Miranda as she was after the LM and during the romance in ME2. She had connected with Oriana was in the process of connecting with Shepard, but she was also still very much the professional operative who could make pragmatic decisions, and she would also talk about something else than her sister. So if you say that Miranda was further "humanized" from there to ME3, I must disagree because she was a complete human back then. ME3 just cut off half of her, turning her into an incomplete human and a reactionary stereotype.

Also, it's not just about Miranda. I hate this talk of "humanization" because it sets a specific psychological makeup as the norm, from which to deviate makes you somehow inhuman. It's psychological fundamentalism and completely ignores how different humans can be. Also, have you ever heard the term applied to a man? Pfft...no, somehow women must be "humanized" while males are valued for what would be a "inhuman" trait in a woman. Damned double standard.

[wright1978]

Miranda's always been able to connect with people, that's why the betrayal by Niket cut so deep.
I'm happy that in my universe she's got both Shep and Oriana now within her inner circle of people she opens up to whilst still keeping a distance from people outside this inner circle.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Do you know who Michelangelo Antonioni is? His characters are much the same way. The issue is not introversion. It's a complete inability to connect to the world at. They are focused on things like work (!), men, women, sex, and sometimes just life being boring in general. They never achieve "normality" but some of them to
find what is necessary.

Balance.

Closer to home, one character they probably originally had in mind with regard to Miranda is Aeryn Sun, the main female character in Farscape. She's played by Claudia Black, who voiced Morrigan. Given those connections, a
fairly direct influence is extremely likely.

Part of the description from the official site:


Aeryn was born into the military and was raised knowing nothing other than combat. While serving as a Peacekeeper, Aeryn resisted becoming close to other people; though she never spent any time alone - always part of a regiment, a battalion, a colony - she was very independent, and never allowed herself to feel emotions like love. Her experience on Moya has taught her that there are other means and methods of communicating, but, she still turns to combat as her primary solution to any problem Moya might face. Even at her most diplomatic, Aeryn keeps her Pulse Rifle close at hand.

In that show, Aeryn Sun's character arc is not very... intricate, but she goes from being a soldier for the  Peacekeepers, who are the bad guys, essentially, to being part of the main character's rebel band (Moya being their ship). She becomes more open emotionally, but without losing her "edge."

With Miranda, we see quite a bit of that in ME2. The issues with her role in 3 really have nothing to do with her character arc continuing along those lines. They have to do with all her awesome traits that she had from the start either being undervalued, entirely absent, not even recognized as good, etc.

If we were seeing Miranda's awesomeness recognized, if we were seeing all her amazing qualities, no one would be complaining about anything. But we are not seeing it. We can imagine those qualities still exist, but we need to see it.

Modifié par flemm, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:56 .

[jtav]

Well, for one thing she hasn't improved. She takes being dumped worse than anyone, quite literally dying if her boyfriend breaks up with her. Compare to her being clearly hurt but still functional if you dump her after lock-in in ME2. Also, she's quite warm and friendly when "off the clock" and goes above and beyond for her ex, Jacob. She is deathly afraid of hurting Ori, but can be convinced that it's worth the risk. Her love for Ori (and Shepard) exists alongside her desire to improve humanity and give herself a challenge. But in ME3, love becomes obsession. She has no ambition, no hopes for the future. Everything she did for Cerberus is implied to be a substitute for the family she can't have. She is indifferent to what Cerberus has become--and she should care because she helped them succeed for twenty years. She comes off as nearly sociopathic in her focus on Ori. Her grand plot contribution is incidental. She didn't intend to track Cerberus--she got lucky. Were it not for material added after the leak and fans complaining, you could be forgiven for thinking she does nothing after. She's regressed, psychologically and morally.

[MisterJB]

Nicely put, jtav.

Ieldra2 wrote...
I have Kaidan alive in my revised playthrough for my main Shepard. One thing I like about him is that he has a really good conversation with Shepard about Cerberus after the Gellix mission. He comes to a much more balanced view of Shepard's past with them.

Likewise. Unfortunately, that conversation also has the distinct ability to ****** me off due to the fact Kaidan directly questions Shepard regarding the character of the scientists who ressurected him. Since Shepard only ever met two, you'd think mentioning Miranda would be the logical thing to do but you are not even given the option to do so.

[ghost9191]

yeah i got ( at least from my play through) that Miranda was done with cerberus in ME2 , they were no longer the organization she joined, so understandable that she was not part of it in ME3 .

but seeing what they had become , i would think she would feel something about that. And i get wanting to make sure family is safe, but not by ignoring the reaper threat and such

Modifié par ghost9191, 14 septembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
She is indifferent to what Cerberus has become--and she should care because she helped them succeed for twenty years.

In some ways this is the biggest one to me. Of course she should be opposing Cerberus. But she isn't really. She doesn't have an opinion on it, or even seem to be aware of what is happening.

Even after cleaning out a Cerberus death camp run by *her father* the only line referencing it sort of suggests she considered leaving without doing anything about it. What is that?

It's just bad writing.

The moment you talk to Miranda in ME3, there should be dialogue that contains thinking along these lines:

Our time together fighting the Collectors really changed my view of a lot things, including Cerberus. I've had to question a lot of the things I used to take for granted. The Illusive Man has begun indoctrinating his troops, and it has to stop. I'm going to do everything I can, but I need your help.

Then we could talk about Shepard having a positive influence. Later Miranda would find out about her father's involvement, and the control chip dialogue would also address the indoctrination issue.

Modifié par flemm, 14 septembre 2012 - 04:38 .

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

Well, for one thing she hasn't improved. She takes being dumped worse than anyone, quite literally dying if her boyfriend breaks up with her. Compare to her being clearly hurt but still functional if you dump her after lock-in in ME2. Also, she's quite warm and friendly when "off the clock" and goes above and beyond for her ex, Jacob. She is deathly afraid of hurting Ori, but can be convinced that it's worth the risk. Her love for Ori (and Shepard) exists alongside her desire to improve humanity and give herself a challenge. But in ME3, love becomes obsession. She has no ambition, no hopes for the future. Everything she did for Cerberus is implied to be a substitute for the family she can't have. She is indifferent to what Cerberus has become--and she should care because she helped them succeed for twenty years. She comes off as nearly sociopathic in her focus on Ori. Her grand plot contribution is incidental. She didn't intend to track Cerberus--she got lucky. Were it not for material added after the leak and fans complaining, you could be forgiven for thinking she does nothing after. She's regressed, psychologically and morally.

And? The portryal blows but it isn't the end of the world.  

You have a character in what amounts to a cameo role. She has about fifteen minutes of screen time. If you're honestly expecting a fully realized character you're going to be in for a big shock. All they did was take a character trait and use it to string her along. I've been talking about this for quite a while. Everything you're complaining about has to do with a reduced role. Nitpicking it to death isn't helping anyone. You're looking for a hidden plot against the character when there is none.

They wanted to finish everyone's story and they did. The only difference is is that some people took offense at the side that is shown.

The question is is whether or not you plan on doing something about it. At this point I think it has you so worked up that even a DLC couldn't fix things for you.

What do you plan on doing to fix the problem?

[krukow]

I think a lot of the arguement against Miranda's ME3 portrayal is an arguement from silence. Since we aren't shown specific things, we assume they're no longer part of her.

That's just unfair though. Her character portrayal should simply be added on to what we already know about her. Especially since she's shown to care about the war just as much as anyone else at the end. After all, I don't see people slamming Tali or Wrex even though they too can't bother with the war until their personal problems are solved (unlike Ash, who's just awesome).

Miri's whole character didn't get screen time, or at least equal screen time, but she's still pretty much the same as at the end of ME2.

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

I think a lot of the arguement against Miranda's ME3 portrayal is an arguement from silence. Since we aren't shown specific things, we assume they're no longer part of her.

Yes. People assume it's some grand plot. It isn't.

It just sucks. Being butthurt about everything isn't helping anyone.

[ghost9191]

eh crying gets attention , best way to fix things would be to voice your displeasure with something. though it seems even then it wouldn't please most. I will be happy if they give her a role like in LOTSB ( which might not happen or might, one can dream ) and expand a bit on her character, resolve past feelings or something.

[Taboo]

People are picking things apart and are taking offense to everything just like in the Story Forum. It isn't going to change.

They aren't going to rewrite things to fit your view of the character. I'm making do with what I have and I'm okay for the most part. I can't say the same for anyone else.

I want a DLC to balance things out. Will it happen? I don't know. But I know I won't keel over and die if Bioware doesn't do it. Miranda won't either.

[MisterJB]

As others have said, there is a great implication in ME3 how her work is a substitute to more mundane pursuits. Thus, we are not just dealing with Miranda's deafening silence concerning anything that is not her family. We are also confronted with a deliberate attempt to turn her into something she was not before.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:09 .

[t3HPrO]

The only way we'll ever get more Miranda (or more any character, for that matter) is to fire Mac Walters. Problem solved. It's that simple, really.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

As others have said, there is a great implication in ME3 how her work is a substitute to more mundane pursuits. Thus, we are not just dealing with Miranda's deafening silence concerning anything that is not her family. We are also confronted with a deliberate attempt to turn her into something she was not before.

No you're frustrated about what was shown and assume it's a plot. It isn't. You've nitpicked things to death because you don't like how things turned out.

The same exact thing is happening right now in the Story Forums. It doesn't fit your vision and you're upset. That's entirely understandable.

What do you plan on doing about it?

[krukow]

t3HPrO wrote...

The only way we'll ever get more Miranda (or more any character, for that matter) is to fire Mac Walters. Problem solved. It's that simple, really.

How does firing someone get us more Miranda?  All it does is leave ME without a writer.

You're missing a huge step in there, and then making a huge assumption (the new writer would want to write Miranda) just to spew venom...

[t3HPrO]

krukow wrote...

t3HPrO wrote...

The only way we'll ever get more Miranda (or more any character, for that matter) is to fire Mac Walters. Problem solved. It's that simple, really.

How does firing someone get us more Miranda?  All it does is leave ME without a writer.

You're missing a huge step in there, and then making a huge assumption (the new writer would want to write Miranda) just to spew venom...

20 bucks says that if Mac Walters were to write another DLC storyline, it'd involve Shepard having babies with Liara. And 10 says that another DLC makes Liara the galaxy's only salvation through a Starbaby.

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
She is indifferent to what Cerberus has become--and she should care because she helped them succeed for twenty years.

In some ways this is the biggest one to me. Of course she should be opposing Cerberus. But she isn't really. She doesn't have an opinion on it, or even seem to be aware of what is happening.

Even after cleaning out a Cerberus death camp run by *her father* the only line referencing it sort of suggests she considered leaving without doing anything about it. What is that?

It's just bad writing.

The moment you talk to Miranda in ME3, there should be dialogue that contains thinking along these lines:

Our time together fighting the Collectors really changed my view of a lot things, including Cerberus. I've had to question a lot of the things I used to take for granted. The Illusive Man has begun indoctrinating his troops, and it has to stop. I'm going to do everything I can, but I need your help.

Then we could talk about Shepard having a positive influence. Later Miranda would find out about her father's involvement, and the control chip dialogue would also address the indoctrination issue.

Yep for me its her complete lack of visible care or action as to what Cerberus is doing and wanting to do something to stop them. That's why i cling to the 'cerberus renegades' e-mail like a drowning man grabbing hold of a life raft as i can imagine she has been building this group to deal with Cerberus from the beginning. I still find it utterly inexcusable that her voiced content doesn't start with more of a Cerberus direction and only later go to the Oriana plot hook. Feels to me like no one spent anytime on her role and so she got this the reheated leftovers. Disgraceful.