82210 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cells do not communicate with one another lilitheris. Talk to EDI in ME2.

Each cell is different.

Operatives won't even recognize other Operatives because they're separate. That's stated too.

So you’d join the nice KKK chapter?

“Each cell is different.” Why? And why are they in the same organization? Do they condone the activities of the others?

[MisterJB]

One man's terrorists is another man's freedom figthers.

[lillitheris]

fiendishchicken wrote...

The problem is you're attributing
Cerberus with the KKK. Cerberus is a human survivalist group, not a
racist one. They're out to preserve humanity, not kill other species.

This is factually incorrect. They are out to kill other species. They are an affirmed, known terrorist organization. This is straight  from the lore. Every single member of the organization knows that  Cerberus has committed acts of terrorism.

Now, you can certainly argue that the members think that this is the necessary price of  ‘preserving humanity’…but so do the KKK about ‘preserving white’.

@MisterJB: As above, I certainly think it possible that they think themselves ‘freedom fighters’. Absolutely. What isn’t possible is thinking that Cerberus is a nice organization.

Modifié par lillitheris, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:11 .

[fiendishchicken]

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cells do not communicate with one another lilitheris. Talk to EDI in ME2.

Each cell is different.

Operatives won't even recognize other Operatives because they're separate. That's stated too.

So you’d join the nice KKK chapter?

“Each cell is different.” Why? And why are they in the same organization? Do they condone the activities of the others?

You have no argument. You're saying, and probably believing, that he'd join a group such as the KKK based on a stated fact of how each cell is run differently with different members and different objectives.

That is incorrect thinking based on an assumption on your part.

My dad always told me to never assume anything. You end up making an ass out of yourself.

[fiendishchicken]

MisterJB wrote...

One man's terrorists is another man's freedom figthers.

Indeed... But that doesn't make the freedom fighters purpose right.

[fiendishchicken]

lillitheris wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

The problem is you're attributing
Cerberus with the KKK. Cerberus is a human survivalist group, not a
racist one. They're out to preserve humanity, not kill other species.

This is factually incorrect. They are out to kill other species. They are an affirmed, known terrorist organization. This is straight  from the lore. Every single member of the organization knows that  Cerberus has committed acts of terrorism.

Now, you can certainly argue that the members think that this is the necessary price of  ‘preserving humanity’…but so do the KKK about ‘preserving white’.

Source please. 

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[lillitheris]

fiendishchicken wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Cells do not communicate with one another lilitheris. Talk to EDI in ME2.

Each cell is different.

Operatives won't even recognize other Operatives because they're separate. That's stated too.

So you’d join the nice KKK chapter?

“Each cell is different.” Why? And why are they in the same organization? Do they condone the activities of the others?

You have no argument. You're saying,

No, I’m asking. You’re welcome to answer, too. Would you join a nice KKK chapter?

Just to be clear, this isn’t some accusation of racism. I’m trying to get you to understand what the decision to join Cerberus would be like for someone living in the ME universe.

…

Quoth codex:

“Any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are justified, including
illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and
assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are
brutal, but believe history will vindicate them. Nevertheless, both the
Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council have declared Cerberus to be a terrorist organization and will prosecute identified Cerberus agents accordingly.
”

“[in ‘Ascension’] It is also revealed that Cerberus is responsible for several acts of sabotage and at least one assassination.”

Modifié par lillitheris, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[hot_heart]

ME is rife with inconsistency. A lot of the time, you do have to just go along with it.

I was happy to accept whatever the intent with Cerberus was in ME2. They are the morally grey ones, which brings along complications and interesting story potential. And with that the Alliance are the good guys who do no wrong, and the Council is the black police chief who doesn't believe you and takes your gun and badge at a critical moment. While the Shadow Broker operation under Liara becomes a Big Bank of Wonderful And Bloodless Investment Opportunities that just happens to have its own army.

Oh, on the other Miranda topic, I know Yvonne Strahovski has said she is drawn to tragic stories, so it figures that she knows how to nail those elements.

[Taboo]

Go back and look the quote Babi posted. They were written more in depth by Karpyshyn intentionally.

As with any group they have carrying degrees of zealotry. Miranda is dedicated but she isn't racist. She states openly that she thinks Xenophobia is a poor reason for joining Cerberus. She wants what's best for humanity. Listen to what Miranda states on the Collector Ship when she obviously realizes TIM sent them into a trap. Bring her along.

"Cerberus wouldn't do this."

[MisterJB]

fiendishchicken wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

One man's terrorists is another man's freedom figthers.

Indeed... But that doesn't make the freedom fighters purpose right.

Right and wrong is subjective. "Preserving and advancing humanity" is a worthy goal from my point of view.
Cerberus has done questionable things in pursuit of that goal but, before ME3, certainly nothing pro-alien groups such as the STG and the Spectres haven't done many, many times before.
Most of Cerberus' actions were entirely justifiable.

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
No, I’m asking. You’re welcome to answer, too. Would you join a nice KKK chapter?

Just to be clear, this isn’t some accusation of racism. I’m trying to get you to understand what the decision to join Cerberus would be like for someone living in the ME universe.

Would a salarian join the Salarian Special Tasks Group?
"Attrocities" that are approved by the Matriarches are no less "wrong" than "attrocities"approved by The Illusive Man.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:17 .

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Retconned that way

Your argument is that ME, released 2 years before ME2, was ‘retconned’ to…what is your argument?

Possibly the various retcons are getting lost a bit in the shuffle of the discussion. It's probably worth going back over some of this.

In ME1, Cerberus was a terrorist/extremist/xenophobic organisation of minor importance and influence, engaged in the type of relatively small-scale bombings, assassinations, etc. that one might associate with such a fringe organisation.

In ME2, Cerberus is revealed to function like a rogue black ops organisation, with the cutting edge technology, strong ties to the Alliance military and "big picture" objectives, such as defending colonies, defeating the Collectors, and eventually the Reapers, that one would associate with that type of organisation (but not with the fringe group from ME1).

In ME3, Cerberus works like the Sith, where basically everybody is a drone except the Emperor and his henchman, and the goal is galactic domination (something the ME1 organisation couldn't aspire to at all).

Certain characters, especially Miranda, only really make sense from the point of view of the ME2 portrayal, but they do make sense from that point of view.

The idea that what we see in ME2 is just a front is, of course, a retcon, and only possible from the point of view of ME3 Cerberus, *not* from the point of view of the ME1 fringe organisation. A organisation like that could never "pose" as a group responsable for the Lazarus Project, or create such a "front."

The organisation's cell structure (which, as I can recall, is really only dealt with in ME2), is a function of its nature as a covert black ops organisation. But there's really no mystery as to why people in the ME universe might join ME2 Cerberus: all the reasons that are *explained* by the people working for ME2 Cerberus.

[Taboo]

Just because someone else does it doesn't give you the right however. There's a difference.

And that's why Cerberus was doomed to the path it was. It's failed Idealism in it's greatest form.

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Go back and look the quote Babi posted. They were written more in depth by Karpyshyn intentionally.

I’m perfectly aware that they were changed in ME2, and then changed back in ME3. I stated this earlier. That’s pretty much my point here…the claim that the ME3 Cerberus was somehow unprecedented is nonsense. It’s the ME2 Cerberus that’s the anomaly.

As with any group they have carrying degrees of zealotry. Miranda is dedicated but she isn't racist. She states openly that she thinks Xenophobia is a poor reason for joining Cerberus. She wants what's best for humanity. Listen to what Miranda states on the Collector Ship when she obviously realizes TIM sent them into a trap. Bring her along.

"Cerberus wouldn't do this."

That’s OOC.

We’re back to the same old question: why is Miranda with Cerberus when she knows they perform terrorist acts?

The answer, if you cannot abide to accept that ME2 was just a front, is that she accepts those atrocities as necessary.

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
No, I’m asking. You’re welcome to answer, too. Would you join a nice KKK chapter?

Just to be clear, this isn’t some accusation of racism. I’m trying to get you to understand what the decision to join Cerberus would be like for someone living in the ME universe.

Would a salarian join the Salarian Special Tasks Group?
"Attrocities" that are approved by the Matriarches are no less "wrong" than "attrocities"approved by The Illusive Man.

And? I’m not arguing that Cerberus is worse than everyone else. I’m arguing that Cerberus isn’t nice, and its members know it.

[fiendishchicken]

MisterJB wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

One man's terrorists is another man's freedom figthers.

Indeed... But that doesn't make the freedom fighters purpose right.

Right and wrong is subjective. "Preserving and advancing humanity" is a worthy goal from my point of view.
Cerberus has done questionable things in pursuit of that goal but, before ME3, certainly nothing pro-alien groups such as the STG and the Spectres haven't done many, many times before.
Most of Cerberus' actions were entirely justifiable.

I agree with the post on Cerberus.

I'm also disagreeing with the Taliban and Muslim militants hiding in the hills of Helmand, Nimruz, and Kandahar.

They call themselves freedom fighters. They're stated purpose is to cleanse their land of the Western infidels and their influences, and kill any native adherents to any philosophy and religion that is not their own. 

They mean business too. I've been in a firefight with them.

A step further is al-Qaeda, a jihadist organization on a 'revolution' to cleanse the Earth of all non-Muslims.

Or the WBC, who want to kill off all people of homosexual orientation.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:25 .

[Steelcan]

There is a place for Cerberus in humanity, it is not a wholly terrorist organization.

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
That’s OOC.

We’re back to the same old question: why is Miranda with Cerberus when she knows they perform terrorist acts?

The answer, if you cannot abide to accept that ME2 was just a front, is that she accepts those atrocities as necessary.

No, it's not. From the beginning of the game, you can see that Miranda places a lot of personal trust on TIM.
"Whatever else people might say about him, I can assure you he has the best interests of humanity in mind. That includes you and me."

She was unprepared for TIM's calous attitude towards his own people, loyal Cerberus operatives. The fact that she might see assassinations of third party elements as necessary to protect the human race is entirely unrelated to this.

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

That's OOC

LOL

We’re back to the same old question: why is Miranda with Cerberus when she knows they perform terrorist acts?

The answer, if you cannot abide to accept that ME2 was just a front, is that she accepts those atrocities as necessary.

Ask yourself. Given what you've seen now how much of it do you was a front? I think some it was. Willfully ignorant.

She may be aloof in ME3 but she's tempered quite a bit. I don't disagree with you.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:29 .

[lillitheris]

Thank you for the summary, flemm. I have one point of contention to it.

flemm wrote...

Certain characters, especially Miranda, only really make sense from the point of view of the ME2 portrayal, but they do make sense from that point of view.

I don’t think you can categorically state so. You’re simply refusing to make sense of Miranda with the big picture. You’re opting to only concentrate on ME2.

The idea that what we see in ME2 is just a front is, of course, a retcon, and only possible from the point of view of ME3 Cerberus, *not* from the point of view of the ME1 fringe organisation. A organisation like that could never "pose" as a group responsable for the Lazarus Project, or create such a "front."

I disagree with your assertion that ME Cerberus could not achieve whatever ME2 Cerberus does. You are not presenting a convincing argument for this assertion—or, really, any argument.

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
 I’m arguing that Cerberus isn’t nice, and its members know it.

Of course, because one doesn't join a rogue black ops organisation out of the desire to be "nice." Does one join the Alliance military out of a desire to be "nice"? Probably not. But to accomplish important things? Yes.

What doesn't make sense is somebody like Miranda (or some other characters) working for the ME1 fringe extremist group. But in ME2 Cerberus is not the ME1 fringe extremist group. It is a rogue black ops organisation with "big picture" objectives that are important.

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
And? I’m not arguing that Cerberus is worse than everyone else. I’m arguing that Cerberus isn’t nice, and its members know it.

And because Cerberus isn't nice, no nice people can join?
People who believe protecting humanity is worth killing a few politicians? Maybe doing a few unhetical experiments?
Cerberus can only be composed of xenophobes with a penchant for murder like Kai Leng?

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
That’s OOC.

We’re back to the same old question: why is Miranda with Cerberus when she knows they perform terrorist acts?

The answer, if you cannot abide to accept that ME2 was just a front, is that she accepts those atrocities as necessary.

No, it's not. From the beginning of the game, you can see that Miranda places a lot of personal trust on TIM.
"Whatever else people might say about him, I can assure you he has the best interests of humanity in mind. That includes you and me."

She was unprepared for TIM's calous attitude towards his own people, loyal Cerberus operatives. The fact that she might see assassinations of third party elements as necessary to protect the human race is entirely unrelated to this.

I don’t think it’s unrelated to it at all. If your argument is that Miranda is with Cerberus because she trusts TIM to do the right thing (as far as the big picture goes), that has the clear implication that she considers the acts an acceptable tradeoff for whatever gain she assumes.

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
And? I’m not arguing that Cerberus is worse than everyone else. I’m arguing that Cerberus isn’t nice, and its members know it.

And because Cerberus isn't nice, no nice people can join?
People who believe protecting humanity is worth killing a few politicians? Maybe doing a few unhetical experiments?
Cerberus can only be composed of xenophobes with a penchant for murder like Kai Leng?

No. Cerberus can only be composed of people who accept those people and those acts in pursuit of their goal.