82210 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
I don’t think it’s unrelated to it at all. If your argument is that Miranda is with Cerberus because she trusts TIM to do the right thing (as far as the big picture goes), that has the clear implication that she considers the acts an acceptable tradeoff for whatever gain she assumes.

Of course it is unrelated. Miranda is with Cerberus because she firmly believes in a group with a human positive agenda that is capable of doing things other can't. Whether because it's considered immoral by public opinion or because bureaucracy slows them down.

This belief is independent of the personal trust she placed on TIM to not betray his own people when he, clearly, didn't deserve it.

[Taboo]

To bad about those c-c-changes right?

[lillitheris]

MisterJB wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I don’t think it’s unrelated to it at all. If your argument is that Miranda is with Cerberus because she trusts TIM to do the right thing (as far as the big picture goes), that has the clear implication that she considers the acts an acceptable tradeoff for whatever gain she assumes.

Of course it is unrelated. Miranda is with Cerberus because she firmly believes in a group with a human positive agenda that is capable of doing things other can't. Whether because it's considered immoral by public opinion or because bureaucracy slows them down.

This belief is independent of the personal trust she placed on TIM to not betray his own people when he, clearly, didn't deserve it.

Your argument is something entirely different from mine. I don’t really care about the supposed TIM betrayal aspect (in this case).

To modify your statement:

Miranda is with Cerberus because she firmly believes in a group with a
human positive agenda that is capable of doing things other can't, by using terrorist means.

You cannot divorce the actions of Cerberus from membership in it. Either she isn’t a member, or she finds those actions an acceptable tradeoff.

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
I disagree with your assertion that ME Cerberus could not achieve whatever ME2 Cerberus does. You are not presenting a convincing argument for this assertion—or, really, any argument.

Lazarus is an unprecedented medical miracle. That alone means that Cerberus has access to the highest caliber scientific minds and most cutting edge technology, beyond even what is available to groups such as the Salarian STG or the Alliance military, or perhaps an amalgam of the best of what is available from a variety of different sources.

That's an entirely different league from what the ME1 fringe group is doing. And of course, ME2 Cerberus' goals are not in line with the ME1 organisation either.

[Taboo]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

To bad about those c-c-changes right?

Time remains the same, unlike Cerberus' transition in ME3.

Dawg I was talking about Miranda's c-c-changes.

We had an eight hour discussion about it last night on Skype.

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I disagree with your assertion that ME Cerberus could not achieve whatever ME2 Cerberus does. You are not presenting a convincing argument for this assertion—or, really, any argument.

Lazarus is an unprecedented medical miracle. That alone means that Cerberus has access to the highest caliber scientific minds and most cutting edge technology, beyond even what is available to groups such as the Salarian STG or the Alliance military, or perhaps an amalgam of the best of what is available from a variety of different sources.

Ignoring the absurdity of the entire concept, we don’t know that it’s beyond someone else’s reach. We only know that the others haven’t tried*—or haven’t deemed the time and cost acceptable.

* Or, technically, we only know that we don’t know if others have tried.

That's an entirely different league from what the ME1 fringe group is doing. And of course, ME2 Cerberus' goals are not in line with the ME1 organisation either.

Maybe. What you perceive the ME2 goals apparently aren’t in line with what you perceive to be the ME goals, at least.

Modifié par lillitheris, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:54 .

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
Your argument is something entirely different from mine. I don’t really care about the supposed TIM betrayal aspect (in this case).

To modify your statement:

Miranda is with Cerberus because she firmly believes in a group with a
human positive agenda that is capable of doing things other can't, by using terrorist means.

You cannot divorce the actions of Cerberus from membership in it. Either she isn’t a member, or she finds those actions an acceptable tradeoff.

You use the word "terrorism" as if its association with something automatically villifies that something.
Cerberus has sabotaged the ships of turian officials and also assassinated candidates to the leadership of Terra Firma. Some might classify this as terrorism while others, like Miranda, might consider them easily defensible and justifiable actions.
On the other hand. Both Miranda and TIM were against what the Pragia Cell did. It was shut down and its members persecuted and punished.

The worth and validity of each action of Cerberus must be determined by analyzing what was lost, what was gained and if there weren't oher ways to reach the same result that would result in less cost. Not by simply saying "Terrorism is bad thus all of Cerberus' actions were wrong."

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
You cannot divorce the actions of Cerberus from membership in it. Either she isn’t a member, or she finds those actions an acceptable tradeoff.

You mean like she explains at great length in ME2? It seems you are trying to prove something that is obvious.

But you're also presenting a very simplistic set of ideas that we don't need to accept. Miranda's point of view fits better with ME2 Cerberus because ME2 Cerberus is portrayed differently, as the creators themselves have stated. What we see in ME1 is explicitly discussed by Miranda, and she provides a perspective on how those events can be understood from the point of view of an organisation that is willing to "cross some lines" in pursuit of important goals. (But not any and every line, at least that is Miranda's perception. She may be wrong, or that point of view might only be shared by certain elements of Cerberus, but that is a plausible type of disagreement as to methods and extremes that one might find in any similar situation, and, of course, in any traditional military as well.)

We don't need to worry about whether Miranda is too "nice" to be part of Cerberus because "niceness" is not an important criteria for wanting to be a part of a black ops organisation any more than it would be for the military.

Modifié par flemm, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:58 .

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
You cannot divorce the actions of Cerberus from membership in it. Either she isn’t a member, or she finds those actions an acceptable tradeoff.

You mean like she explains at great length in ME2? It seems you are trying to prove something that is obvious.

Yes. I think it’s obvious. You seem to think it’s obvious. Yet, somehow, other people do not see this obvious thing. That’s why I’m trying to explain it still.

But you're also presenting a very simplistic set of ideas that we don't need to accept. MIranda's point of view fits better with ME2 Cerberus because ME2 Cerberus is portrayed differently, as the creators themselves have stated. What we see in ME1 is explicitly discussed by Miranda, and she provides a perspective on how those events can be understood.

I disagree. I do not find her explanations satisfactory at all. They are incredible in the literal sense.

You can simply state that you are wilfully ignoring ME Cerberus. That’s fine. I think it’s an easy way out, but by all means.

I am still only arguing against the notion that somehow ME3 made Cerberus into something that it’s not. It didn’t. Unless you wilfully ignore ME.

We don't need to worry about whether Miranda is too "nice" to be part of Cerberus because "niceness" is not an important criteria for wanting to be a part of a black ops organisation any more than it would be for the military.

Substitute a different word, if you like. The difference is not at all unlike joining a military, and joining al-qaida. Trying to conflate the two is disingenuous.

Once again, feel free to argue that she finds the tradeoff acceptable. Feel free to argue that there is no tradeoff  if you explicitly ignore ME and the established lore. But not that Cerberus is just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill cub scout troop.

Modifié par lillitheris, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:00 .

[Taboo]

She realized before it was too late that it was full of ****.

That doesn't sound OOC to me.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:01 .

[MisterJB]

lillitheris wrote...
I disagree. I do not find her explanations satisfactory at all. They are incredible in the literal sense.

What was so unsatisfactory about her explanations?

You can simply state that you are wilfully ignoring ME Cerberus. That’s fine. I think it’s an easy way out, but by all means.

I am still only arguing against the notion that somehow ME3 made Cerberus into something that it’s not. It didn’t. Unless you wilfully ignore ME.

I don't remember ME Cerberus ocuppying colonies or killing its own scientists for no reason at all.

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
Feel free to argue that there is no tradeoff  if you explicitly ignore ME and the established lore.

I'm not ignoring the lore, but rather pointing out that the lore is not consistent. Since this is really obvious, and has even been acknowledged by the creators, it's the logical thing to do.

What you are doing, in essence, is insisting on a continuity that we know does not exist.

lillitheris wrote...

But not that Cerberus is just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill cub scout troop.

It's been progressively a fringe extremist organisation, a rogue black ops organisation, and the Empire.

But never a cub scout troop to my knowledge

[Taboo]

The new organization will have a cub scout group.

It must.

[CrutchCricket]

lillitheris wrote...
I am still only arguing against the notion that somehow ME3 made Cerberus into something that it’s not. It didn’t. Unless you wilfully ignore ME.

Perhaps the word you're looking for is "devolved".

ME2 showed us there was more to Cerberus than a fringe terrorist group. ME3 threw it back into terrorist mode, minus the fringe.

The change was not out of the blue, sure. But it certainly was not a change that made sense.


Then again the Reapers were devolved to mere killbots so maybe it makes sense in Hudson&Walters land.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:15 .

[hot_heart]

Funny thing about ignoring the lore is that I think we're all guilty in some respects. We'll find it silly that people want a conventional victory (in a Refuse ending) because it invalidates other endings, yet imagine that Shepard survives Control and Synthesis endings. Or we'll pretend that Destroy didn't kill geth and EDI. And I have absolutely no problem with that.

We're all irrational, that's part of being human. Anyway, my actual point was, the way I see it, Miranda doesn't so much openly 'accept trade-offs', but has convinced herself that these are anomalies, inconsistencies within Cerberus. She'd rather write that off and try and set a good example. It's not exactly a positive character trait but that is where you start with a character arc.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate it, that's just some spur of the moment thought. I am trying to write here...

Modifié par hot_heart, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:19 .

[Taboo]

hot_heart wrote...

We're all irrational, that's part of being human. Anyway, my actual point was, the way I see it, Miranda doesn't so much openly 'accept trade-offs', but has convinced herself that these are anomalies, inconsistencies within Cerberus. She'd rather write that off and try and set a good example. It's not exactly a positive character trait but that is where you start with a character arc.

I love you.

Where do I send my check?

[Lawrence0294]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The new organization will have a cub scout group.

It must.

[CrutchCricket]

hot_heart wrote...

Funny thing about ignoring the lore is that I think we're all guilty in some respects. We'll find it silly that people want a conventional victory (in a Refuse ending) because it invalidates other endings, yet imagine that Shepard survives Control and Synthesis endings. Or we'll pretend that Destroy didn't kill geth and EDI. And I have absolutely no problem with that.

Sorry, but tell me again how one ending invalidates another?

Refuse as auto-lose is utterly moronic.

As to your other points, those are actual nerfs to the endings, ways to **** on one so the other doesn't get left out. Because "art". Peope ignore them, not because they themselves are irrational, but rather because the combined ranches of Montana carry less bull**** than these so called "consequences" do.

(I know you're not actually pushing these views, but I felt compelled to comment anyway).

[Taboo]

I don't know. Have you ever been to a Montanan farm?

Crap. Crap everywhere.

[lillitheris]

flemm wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
Feel free to argue that there is no tradeoff  if you explicitly ignore ME and the established lore.

I'm not ignoring the lore, but rather pointing out that the lore is not consistent. Since this is really obvious, and has even been acknowledged by the creators, it's the logical thing to do.

What you are doing, in essence, is insisting on a continuity that we know does not exist.

I disagree that it doesn’t exist—but either way, the end-result is the same. In order for you to work with just the ME2 Cerberus, you must ignore the ME one, since you’re not willing to reconcile the two.

…

@hot_heart: And that, also, is fine. I find that it takes too much rationalization to be believable in someone like Miranda, for me, but that’s a more minor difference of opinion.

[Taboo]

Well. Now that that's settled. Here's a picture.

[Lawrence0294]

Ah yes....pictures:

[Taboo]

Yes. Pictures. We sure could use some new ones. The next time I talk to Miss Rose I'll talk to her about that.

Maybe later I don't know. I still haven't figured out Skype.

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't know. Have you ever been to a Montanan farm?

Crap. Crap everywhere.

. Have you seen the endings, crap everywhere