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[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Javik states that the Reapers Indoctrinate one splinter cell every cycle.

What does that Indoctrinated group want? Control.

TIM and Cerberus are nothing more than a long, long plot to do this. He's been a puppet for twenty years.

. In ME3 yes, not in ME2, I don't think he's fully indoctrinated until he puts the reaper the in his headwebkit-fake-url://C84A8EAE-B240-473F-A85D-4B1C62530E53/imagejpeg

Modifié par Steelcan, 20 septembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[hot_heart]

Steelcan wrote...
I think he did that to fight the Reapers, but he couldn't control the signal once the reapers arrived, hence Cerberus attack on Benning nd work at Sanctuary to use the signal

That may all be well and true, but it would be a sign of indoctrination. Being convinced your own goals and methods are right, not realising you're being twisted towards the Reapers' purposes.

[Steelcan]

hot_heart wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
I think he did that to fight the Reapers, but he couldn't control the signal once the reapers arrived, hence Cerberus attack on Benning nd work at Sanctuary to use the signal

That may all be well and true, but it would be a sign of indoctrination. Being convinced your own goals and methods are right, not realising you're being twisted towards the Reapers' purposes.

. Speculations for EVERYONE!!!!!

[Taboo]

Mr Massakka wrote...

TIM was never "slowly getting indoctrinated". He was fully aware of what he was doing in ME2 when he stopped the Reapers again.

He just turned insane, seeking for the power the Reapers have and that lead him to implant Reaper tech. First in his troops, then in himself. Latter part is where he lost control, not slowly in the back of his head for 20 years.

He's had Reaper Tech in him for over tewnty years. Look at his eyes. He was exposed to an Artifact in Evolution.

He's already talking about Control on Mars. That's exactly what Javik states the Reapers do.

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

TIM was never "slowly getting indoctrinated". He was fully aware of what he was doing in ME2 when he stopped the Reapers again.

He just turned insane, seeking for the power the Reapers have and that lead him to implant Reaper tech. First in his troops, then in himself. Latter part is where he lost control, not slowly in the back of his head for 20 years.

He's had Reaper Tech in him for over tewnty years. Look at his eyes. He was exposed to an Artifact in Evolution.

He's already talking about Control on Mars. That's exactly what Javik states the Reapers do.

. No proof of indoctrination in ME2

[ghost9191]

[Steelcan]

 webkit-fake-url://5774C775-F80C-498E-994C-45E255BE9CB0/imagejpeg

[Steelcan]

Why won't my pictures load?

[Taboo]

Steelcan wrote...

. No proof of indoctrination in ME2

You can be guided towards one goal by the Reapers without being aware of it.

That's what Indoctrination is.

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. No proof of indoctrination in ME2

You can be guided towards one goal by the Reapers without being aware of it.

That's what Indoctrination is.

. Yes but then why would he bring back Shepard

[Taboo]

Steelcan wrote...
. Yes but then why would he bring back Shepard

He wants the Reapers beaten but not via Destroy.

Only one man/woman can give him what he needs.

What's four billion credits against unlimited power with the Reapers?

That sounds like something he'd do.

[ghost9191]

they wanted to control and study a base that was a reaper base, that has a reaper in it. indoctrination maybe. He fought it, but in the end he was doing what teh reapers wanted him to . it is subtle at first,


probably could have worded it better but whatever

Modifié par ghost9191, 20 septembre 2012 - 04:52 .

[Stalker]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. No proof of indoctrination in ME2

You can be guided towards one goal by the Reapers without being aware of it.

That's what Indoctrination is.

Why would the Reapers guide TIM to revive the legendary Shepard? Without control chip even?

It doesn't really match up to me.

[hot_heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think he was genuinely anti-Reaper until he got himself implanted. The Reapers may have gained some foothold in his mind in the twenty-five years since ME:Evolution, but his words in the conversation on Thessia are pretty clear. There's nothing of the justification of Reaper actions we see in Saren, for instance. Or in Kenson. 

I see what you're saying, but Saren and TIM are two different characters.

Obviously, it's debatable, but I see it as perfectly plausible that the Reaper influence 'got to' TIM through his anti-Reaper agenda, leading him to 'sacrifice too much' in that pursuit. No need for him to be advocating their actions, just being led down the garden path and sabotaging the plans of others.

Modifié par hot_heart, 20 septembre 2012 - 04:53 .

[krukow]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. No proof of indoctrination in ME2

You can be guided towards one goal by the Reapers without being aware of it.

That's what Indoctrination is.

Why would the Reapers guide TIM to revive the legendary Shepard? Without control chip even?

It doesn't really match up to me.

You assume they were guiding him in everything.

He was their ace in the hole.  They were saving him for the actual invasion, when they would manipulate for him to push for control, and disrupt galactic unity.

Just like what was done in Javik's cycle.

Reviving shep was all him though.

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
. Yes but then why would he bring back Shepard

He wants the Reapers beaten but not via Destroy.

Only one man/woman can give him what he needs.

What's four billion credits against unlimited power with the Reapers?

That sounds like something he'd do.

. I doubt he knew control was a viable option in ME2

[Taboo]

Steelcan wrote...

. I doubt he knew control was a viable option in ME2

The Reapers are the ones who suggest it.

The Protheans didn't know either but one side wanted Control.

And it causes disparity amongst the races. It's just a Reaper plot.

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. I doubt he knew control was a viable option in ME2

The Reapers are the ones who suggest it.

The Protheans didn't know either but one side wanted Control.

And it causes disparity amongst the races. It's just a Reaper plot.

. In ME2 he didn't know about the crucible

[flemm]

lillitheris wrote...
I disagree, I think several people assert exactly that. Almost in the exact words, too.

No. The only one who has articulated that point of view is you. Several times.

At best it is a sort of caricature or over-simplification of one point that a few people have made, as part of a larger argument, with regard to Cerberus' cell structure.

The reason you argue against a simplistic view that only you have presented is because that view is easy to contest, whereas the ones actually presented by the people you are talking to are not.

This is the very definition of a Straw Man:

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Modifié par flemm, 20 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[Stalker]

krukow wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. No proof of indoctrination in ME2

You can be guided towards one goal by the Reapers without being aware of it.

That's what Indoctrination is.

Why would the Reapers guide TIM to revive the legendary Shepard? Without control chip even?

It doesn't really match up to me.

You assume they were guiding him in everything.

He was their ace in the hole. They were saving him for the actual invasion, when they would manipulate for him to push for control, and disrupt galactic unity.

Just like what was done in Javik's cycle.

Reviving shep was all him though.

If reviving Shepard was all him, then what's the point of discussion?
With your words: He wasn't indoctrinated in ME2. Obviously, both the Lazarus project and controlling the base were not the glorious plans of the Reapers.

Conclusion: He was getting indoctrinated only in ME3.

[Taboo]

Steelcan wrote...
. In ME2 he didn't know about the crucible

You don't need to know about it to want to Control them. That's the issue I raise.

He's plenty smart. I wouldn't rule out the possibility.

[krukow]

Mr Massakka wrote...

krukow wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. No proof of indoctrination in ME2

You can be guided towards one goal by the Reapers without being aware of it.

That's what Indoctrination is.

Why would the Reapers guide TIM to revive the legendary Shepard? Without control chip even?

It doesn't really match up to me.

You assume they were guiding him in everything.

He was their ace in the hole. They were saving him for the actual invasion, when they would manipulate for him to push for control, and disrupt galactic unity.

Just like what was done in Javik's cycle.

Reviving shep was all him though.

If reviving Shepard was all him, then what's the point of discussion?
With your words: He wasn't indoctrinated in ME2. Obviously, both the Lazarus project and controlling the base were not the glorious plans of the Reapers.

Conclusion: He was getting indoctrinated only in ME3.

He was being indoctrinated in ME2. 

Indoctrination isn't some magic on/off switch that just happens instantly (well, aside from husks).

And they didn't need him to do anything yet.  He was part of their plan at a later date, so they let him continue on with his stuff.

[Stalker]

krukow wrote...
He was being indoctrinated in ME2. 

Indoctrination isn't some magic on/off switch that just happens instantly (well, aside from husks).

And they didn't need him to do anything yet.  He was part of their plan at a later date, so they let him continue on with his stuff.

Is there any prove for the bolded?

"Didn't need him to do anything yet"... you mean aside from stopping him to conquer the Collector Base?

[Taboo]

Mr Massakka wrote...

krukow wrote...
He was being indoctrinated in ME2. 

Indoctrination isn't some magic on/off switch that just happens instantly (well, aside from husks).

And they didn't need him to do anything yet.  He was part of their plan at a later date, so they let him continue on with his stuff.

Is there any prove for the bolded?

"Didn't need him to do anything yet"... you mean aside from stopping him to conquer the Collector Base?

Harbinger was using them and he has more Collectors.

You have to maintain a level of believability as well. TIM isn't completely Indoctrinated. But a suggestion here and there to make him think a certain way goes a LONG way.

[Stalker]

But TIM hasn't done anything that indicates indoctrination in ME2. Where do you get that idea from?
I haven't heard a single prove: a line, an action or similar. Give me something that supports your thesis.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 20 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .