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[Taboo]

You need only to hear him talk about how Shepard was a puppet on Mars.

"Where you see a means to Destroy I see a means to Control." He states this. And he doesn't know the functions of the Crucible either.

Whatever ideals he had are long gone. Him wanting the base comes out of no where as well. That's why I don't understand why people are saying he isn't capable of bull****ting people.

Miranda notices this during the course of the game. She's only as good to him at this point so as long as she can get him what he wants.

"Why? So you can replace me next?"

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 20 septembre 2012 - 05:30 .

[flemm]

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You need only to hear him talk about how Shepard was a puppet on Mars.

"Where you see a means to Destroy I see a means to Control." He states this. And he doesn't know the functions of the Crucible either.

Whatever ideals he had are long gone. Him wanting the base comes out of no where as well. That's why I don't understand why people are saying he isn't capable of bull****ting people.

Miranda notices this during the course of the game. She's only as good to him at this point so as long as she can get him what he wants.

"Why? So you can replace me next?"

. I don't think that about saving the base.  It makes logical sense for both ME2 and it explains Cerberus's change of heart

[hot_heart]

Taboo-XX wrote...
"Why? So you can replace me next?"

He got the quote wrong! BURN THE HERETIC!

[Ieldra]

Mr Massakka wrote...
But TIM hasn't done anything that indicates indoctrination in ME2. Where do you get that idea from?
I haven't heard a single prove: a line, an action or similar. Give me something that supports your thesis.

Don't bother. There is none. It's just people expressing their usual inability to accept that an antagonistic figure might also have admirable traits.

[Taboo]

hot_heart wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
"Why? So you can replace me next?"

He got the quote wrong! BURN THE HERETIC!

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...
But TIM hasn't done anything that indicates indoctrination in ME2. Where do you get that idea from?
I haven't heard a single prove: a line, an action or similar. Give me something that supports your thesis.

Don't bother. There is none. It's just people expressing their usual inability to accept that an antagonistic figure might also have admirable traits.

I never said he didn't.

Why would you assume I did?

[Stalker]

Everyone is a puppet to him, yes. But how does that prove he was indoctrinated? 

It only proves that he was a visionary who became insane when the powers of the Reapers came in sight. It had nothing to do with a slow indoctrination process.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 20 septembre 2012 - 05:37 .

[Steelcan]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Everyone is a puppet to him, yes. But how does that prove he was indoctrinated? 

It only proves that he was a visionary who became insane when the powers of the Reapers came in sight. It had nothing to do with a slow indoctrination process.

. Agreed, idealism and ambition are not evidence of indoctrination.

[Taboo]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Everyone is a puppet to him, yes. But how does that prove he was indoctrinated? 

It only proves that he was a visionary who became insane when the powers of the Reapers came in sight. It had nothing to do with a slow indoctrination process.

We have quotes from him stating things on Mars suggesting he wanted tech to study for Control. He states this.

Javik confirms that the Reapers Indoctrinate one splinter cell each cycle.

He's been exposed to a Reaper artifact and it's a PART of him. That's why his eyes look the way they do.

He's been ****ing with you for a while now.

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Everyone is a puppet to him, yes. But how does that prove he was indoctrinated? 

It only proves that he was a visionary who became insane when the powers of the Reapers came in sight. It had nothing to do with a slow indoctrination process.

We have quotes from him stating things on Mars suggesting he wanted tech to study for Control. He states this.

Javik confirms that the Reapers Indoctrinate one splinter cell each cycle.

He's been exposed to a Reaper artifact and it's a PART of him. That's why his eyes look the way they do.

He's been ****ing with you for a while now.

. If TIM got indoctrinated by the device on Shanxi then why didn't Shepard get indoctrinated by Object Rho?

[ghost9191]

Steelcan wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Everyone is a puppet to him, yes. But how does that prove he was indoctrinated? 

It only proves that he was a visionary who became insane when the powers of the Reapers came in sight. It had nothing to do with a slow indoctrination process.

We have quotes from him stating things on Mars suggesting he wanted tech to study for Control. He states this.

Javik confirms that the Reapers Indoctrinate one splinter cell each cycle.

He's been exposed to a Reaper artifact and it's a PART of him. That's why his eyes look the way they do.

He's been ****ing with you for a while now.

. If TIM got indoctrinated by the device on Shanxi then why didn't Shepard get indoctrinated by Object Rho?

because it is COMMANDER F*CKING SHEPARD:devil:

[hot_heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Don't bother. There is none. It's just people expressing their usual inability to accept that an antagonistic figure might also have admirable traits.

You mean 'a person'. And even so, that kind of attitude is incredibly reductive and unhelpful. Offensive in some ways.

[Vertigo_1]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Javik confirms that the Reapers Indoctrinate one splinter cell each cycle.

I believe it was the VI that says this ("the pattern has been repeated before" or something close to this)

Javik I think just mentions that there was a splinter group in the last cycle

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 20 septembre 2012 - 05:49 .

[Taboo]

Because he's the protagonist!

But in all seriousness there is deleted dialogue stating that Shepard is immune to Indoctrination. I believe you can find it in the "Deleted Scenes" thread in the Story Forums.

He's had control of his mental functions for a while but at the end of the day the ones who've been whispering sweet nothings in his ear are the Reapers.

That's why you need to start over post war. TIM has been doomed since the start.

Kind of tragic isn't it? He really thought he was doing the right thing. And sometimes he was.

[Steelcan]

ghost9191 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
We have quotes from him stating things on Mars suggesting he wanted tech to study for Control. He states this.
Javik confirms that the Reapers Indoctrinate one splinter cell each cycle.
He's been exposed to a Reaper artifact and it's a PART of him. That's why his eyes look the way they do.
He's been ****ing with you for a while now.

. If TIM got indoctrinated by the device on Shanxi then why didn't Shepard get indoctrinated by Object Rho?

because it is COMMANDER F*CKING SHEPARD:devil:

. Not a good reason:bandit:

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Because he's the protagonist!

But in all seriousness there is deleted dialogue stating that Shepard is immune to Indoctrination. I believe you can find it in the "Deleted Scenes" thread in the Story Forums.

He's had control of his mental functions for a while but at the end of the day the ones who've been whispering sweet nothings in his ear are the Reapers.

That's why you need to start over post war. TIM has been doomed since the start.

Kind of tragic isn't it? He really thought he was doing the right thing. And sometimes he was.

. Even worse reason:bandit:

[Stalker]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Everyone is a puppet to him, yes. But how does that prove he was indoctrinated? 

It only proves that he was a visionary who became insane when the powers of the Reapers came in sight. It had nothing to do with a slow indoctrination process.

We have quotes from him stating things on Mars suggesting he wanted tech to study for Control. He states this.

Javik confirms that the Reapers Indoctrinate one splinter cell each cycle.

He's been exposed to a Reaper artifact and it's a PART of him. That's why his eyes look the way they do.

He's been ****ing with you for a while now.

"He was trying to control the Reaper tech the whole time"... that's what I was saying: the attempt to get this power led him to insanity and lastly indoctrination. not vice versa. 

"They indoctrinated splitter groups"... They did. They indoctrinated TIM. But it did not happen over the years. Not a single action was taken from TIM pre Reaper-invasion that supported the Reapers or has shown signs of indoctrination.

... besides the eyes of course. 

[Taboo]

That's the way it is though.

It's ****ing stupid but you have to deal with it.

[Taboo]

Mr Massakka wrote...

"They indoctrinated splitter groups"... They did. They indoctrinated TIM. But it did not happen over the years. Not a single action was taken from TIM pre Reaper-invasion that supported the Reapers or has shown signs of indoctrination.

... besides the eyes of course. 

The signs aren't always visible. Having very subte things inserted into his thought process is a great thing to do.

"Hey, what about X?"

The Codex states how dangerous it is for powerful officials to become Indoctrinated. How many people are as powerful as he is?

[Td1984]

wright1978 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Playing ME3 makes me hate the alliance.

Yep, i'm with you there.

ME3 makes me hate just about everyone who's not on my ship with the exception of Miranda.

[flemm]

Taboo-XX wrote...

We have quotes from him stating things on Mars suggesting he wanted tech to study for Control. He states this.

Javik confirms that the Reapers Indoctrinate one splinter cell each cycle.

He's been exposed to a Reaper artifact and it's a PART of him. That's why his eyes look the way they do.

He's been ****ing with you for a while now.

Quite a bit of the type of thing you're mentioning is the result of retconning, though.

Which isn't to say it's inaccurate. But rather to point out that it is still possible to interpret TIM according to other criteria.

The idea that TIM is working under the influence of indoctrination isn't very convincingly used within the context of ME3's story anyway, because his research into controlling the Reapers is really a threat to them, meaning that the indoctrination thing only comes into play at the very last minute.

Part of this may be due to Walters being a Cerberus fan at heart, so some of the ME3 stuff really goes against his sensibilities or instincts, I think.

Modifié par flemm, 20 septembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Lawrence0294]

Damn, all i see regarding TIMs plot are retcons

Not easy to make sense with retcons

Modifié par kratos0294, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Steelcan]

Td1984 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Playing ME3 makes me hate the alliance.

Yep, i'm with you there.

ME3 makes me hate just about everyone who's not on my ship with the exception of Miranda.

. Why hate the Alliance, just curious

[Stalker]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

"They indoctrinated splitter groups"... They did. They indoctrinated TIM. But it did not happen over the years. Not a single action was taken from TIM pre Reaper-invasion that supported the Reapers or has shown signs of indoctrination.

... besides the eyes of course. 

The signs aren't always visible. Having very subte things inserted into his thought process is a great thing to do.

"Hey, what about X?"

The Codex states how dangerous it is for powerful officials to become Indoctrinated. How many people are as powerful as he is?

Exactly, not a single sign is visible pre-ME3. Not even a subtile look or movement that could be interpreted that way. I am still missing the prove, one single scene, that supports your thesis.

The Codex... Yes, but as far as I can remember that entry was also present in ME1 where TIM wasn't even created. 
It's just some random fact that applies to a lot of people in the ME universe. And after all, I agree he was indoctrinated. Just not in a subtile way over the years.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:05 .