82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Little Red Corvette]

And about Miranda's father... I don't see why she would lie about it, maybe over exaggerate but not lie. And I think she also made the right choice in "kidnapping" Oriana because Miranda even says she wasn't about to have a social life and such, and humans are a very social species. So I think Miranda was right in taking Oriana away from Mr.Lawson

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
We know he's extremely controlling. We know they were discarded in some fashion. We know he abused Miranda, We know he was willing to use force to retake his daughter. Moreover, we know that the ME writing team tends to be more morally absolutist. So within the confines of the universe, I feel entirely justified in writing him of as a card-carrying villain. You're looking for complexity where none exists. He's no better than Ronald Taylor.

Not within the confines of the universe, no - within the confines of Bioware's implementation of their own storytelling conventions. But that's metagaming and doesn't count for me. I look at things from within the world. And...if it turns out that I decide to kill him, then I want to do it because I am convinced by the evidence, and I want to do it in a cool and detached manner and not in a fit of moral outrage. Moral outrage is an emotion I am deeply distrustful of. 

Apart from that, I want to know what drives the man. I want to understand how he ticks. It is never enough for me to know *that* someone has done certain things, I need to know why. Because you know, I think that every human is basically capable of anything given the right incentive. And I want to know his incentives.

@Little Red Corvette:
I do believe Miranda. We are debating what exactly we can infer from what she says. We know about the emotional abuse, and we know that he sent mercs after Oriana. Everything else is not known, just assumed. We also debate whether or not Mr:X. should be heard out. I'm mainly arguing against the people who say "shoot him on sight". I will not relent in that. I'd give that opportunity to worse people than him.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 août 2011 - 08:54 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Dear lord.... that picture is.... horrible lol

[Ieldra]

A different picture:

[Sebby]

We know that Mr.Lawson used to support Cerberus, so he's a good human patriot and not all bad.

Modifié par Seboist, 08 août 2011 - 08:56 .

[Little Red Corvette]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dear lord.... that picture is.... horrible lol

Honestly.. I got a good laugh outta it and first thing I though of was.. "Hey! Let's post it!"

[LuxDragon]

Seboist wrote...

We know that Mr.Lawson used to support Cerberus, so he's a good human patriot and not all bad.

He supported Cerberus because TIM is charismatic. I doubt most of the investors ever really know anything about what Cerberus does.

[jtav]

And it hardly counts as a plus in my book, I don't have much use for Cerberus either. I just got testy at the arguments given for destroying the base. The idea of Mr. Lawson's vision of a genetic dynasty succeeding horrifies me. I view Miranda's creation as immoral. It's not her fault and she's obviously fully human but it's not something that should be done ever again.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
And it hardly counts as a plus in my book, I don't have much use for Cerberus either. I just got testy at the arguments given for destroying the base. The idea of Mr. Lawson's vision of a genetic dynasty succeeding horrifies me. I view Miranda's creation as immoral. It's not her fault and she's obviously fully human but it's not something that should be done ever again.

Isn't it just strange how deep disagreements go?

What you view as immoral, I view as utterly desirable, and in fact I what I feel about opposing genetic improvement of the next generation likely comes close to "it's immoral". I cannot understand a way of thinking that would forbid giving the next generation traits that cannot be seen as anything but desirable, excepting the uniform look of course. Opposing that feels like malice to me.

[Sebby]

Genetic improvement is done all the time in the ME universe like in this case: http://masseffect.wi...:_Family_Matter

Modifié par Seboist, 08 août 2011 - 09:51 .

[jtav]

It's not the genetic engineering per se, Ieldra, as much as it is the complete separation of the procreative and unitive aspects of sex and rendering the mother completely unnecessary. I'm fairly certain that the engineering itself is fine. i think. Though it still gives many absolute creeps.

[MisterJB]

That was to correct a flaw that could endanger the life of the baby. It's different from creating another human being solely through genetic engineering.

[Sebby]

jtav wrote...

It's not the genetic engineering per se, Ieldra, as much as it is the complete separation of the procreative and unitive aspects of sex and rendering the mother completely unnecessary. I'm fairly certain that the engineering itself is fine. i think. Though it still gives many absolute creeps.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Lawson still needed a surrogate mother to carry the daughters to term.

[jtav]

Debatable. Depends on if the articial womb tech existed by 2150. Not that it changes anything.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
It's not the genetic engineering per se, Ieldra, as much as it is the complete separation of the procreative and unitive aspects of sex and rendering the mother completely unnecessary. I'm fairly certain that the engineering itself is fine. i think. Though it still gives many absolute creeps.

I see. Hmm....I have no particular reaction to this idea of artificial parthenogenesis as such. Not even a squick reaction.

As for the moral question: I can't see a convincing reason why one method to make a child should be preferred on moral grounds. I've also met quite a few women who would avoid pregnancies if they could, and still have a child, and I can see no convincing reason to deny them if they could do it. And then we are wired to have a lot more children than is good for the Earth - and thus, humanity - in the end. I find the disassociation of both functions desirable for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with genetic engineering.

It's only the possible motivations of Miranda's father that make it all creepy.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 août 2011 - 10:48 .

[jtav]

So, do you see Miranda getting married? I've softened my stance. I can't see her having an elaborate ceremony or taking her partner's surname or anything like that but I could see her having a small civil ceremony and spending a fortune on the honeymoon. I'd also expect an ubromantic proposal like saying it'd save on paperwork so she can deflect from her real feelings. And she'd do the proposing.

Modifié par jtav, 09 août 2011 - 01:56 .

[LuxDragon]

^ For once, I actually agree with you.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I would love to be able to Marry Miri!

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 09 août 2011 - 02:08 .

[jtav]

I do think it's beyond the scope of the game and they'd be better served with a vague happy ending. Not everyone wants marriage and children.

[LuxDragon]

I like the idea of slightly open ended endings. Not too vague, just have a few questions answered that's all.

[Sepewrath]

jtav wrote...

I do think it's beyond the scope of the game and they'd be better served with a vague happy ending. Not everyone wants marriage and children.

At that point my Shepard would say its time to take the fight to the Reapers and head for dark space.

Miranda: But there are no more Reapers

Shepard: Cant hear you babe, fighting Reapers *takes off through Citadel relay*

[MisterJB]

Should be an option. Not to have an actual marriage but for Shepard and the LI to discuss plans for the future. The player chooses just how specific they want to be, from "Let's just survive this, alrigth?" to "Marriage, old age and lots of little blue children".

[Sebby]

LuxDragon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

We know that Mr.Lawson used to support Cerberus, so he's a good human patriot and not all bad.

He supported Cerberus because TIM is charismatic. I doubt most of the investors ever really know anything about what Cerberus does.

What do you base that on? There's no indicator he even knows TIM's existence.

[spirosz]

Sepewrath wrote...

At that point my Shepard would say its time to take the fight to the Reapers and head for dark space.

Miranda: But there are no more Reapers

Shepard: Cant hear you babe, fighting Reapers *takes off through Citadel relay*

Lmaooooooooo!  

[TheMarshal]

jtav wrote...

So, do you see Miranda getting married? I've softened my stance. I can't see her having an elaborate ceremony or taking her partner's surname or anything like that but I could see her having a small civil ceremony and spending a fortune on the honeymoon. I'd also expect an ubromantic proposal like saying it'd save on paperwork so she can deflect from her real feelings. And she'd do the proposing.

Something along the lines of the Xanatos/Fox proposal?