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[Filuto]

Dusty Arne wrote...

I want to be able to put a bullet in her brain.. Cerberus Scum!

My soldier male shepard, is with Liara. (never cheated on her). and hates humans.

My vanguard female shepard is with Kaidan. (never cheated on him). and dislikes humans.

Lmao  you must really dislike humans 

[ParadoxAu]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The video is good, it has only one flaw: it assumes similarities in structure between geth and human that do not appear to exist. Geth are software only, as Legion explains, so there is no difference in the end between rewriting and destroying as far as the individual runtimes go - in both cases, they are destroyed. Also, it appears likely that individual runtimes are not sentient - Legion says as much when he claims that geth are lessened by losing contact with each other. So how many clustered runtimes are needed to make sentience? Obvious less than 1183, because Legion appears sentient and it's made to work in isolation from other geth. How do human morals apply to a collective intelligence? In some way, all geth are one, so rewriting the Heretics is more akin to repairing a cancer or a damaged limb than to brainwash individuals. On the other hand, the Heretics did separate as a collective, making two where there was only one before. 

In the end, I cannot decide on moral grounds with any kind of conviction that what I'm doing is right. So I always base my decision on pragmatic reasons: do I want to strengthen the geth or not? Do I want to engender positive relations? Or do I think it is more of a risk to strengthen them, given that they could turn against me.

I think Miranda would do the same and make a pragmatic decision. How that would go, I have no strong opinion about, but I think she would favor destruction. Just in case some of the old programming slips through.

If i remember correctly, whilst it is mentioned that they their processing power increases when they're networked; It's never explicitly stated that they're not sentient by themselves. It's left ambiguous to a certain extent.

I also ultimately make the decision based on pragmatic intent; I find the issue far to morally ambiguous for me to decide based on morality.

I'd love it if Bioware stopped categorizing morality choices into their current Black & White representation, It would allow them to dramatically increase depth of choice. Perhaps in Mass Effect 3 we might see dual Renegade or Dual Paragon choices as mentioned in the video, I doubt it though.

Modifié par ParadoxAu, 09 août 2011 - 09:29 .

[LuxDragon]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus going after Shepard might be due to her succumbing to indoctrination -> http://social.biowar...index/8053209/1

Yeah, if Shepard was indoctrinated, shouldn't he be working for the Reapers, not against?

[Ieldra]

LuxDragon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus going after Shepard might be due to her succumbing to indoctrination -> http://social.biowar...index/8053209/1

Yeah, if Shepard was indoctrinated, shouldn't he be working for the Reapers, not against?

He might be working for the Reapers and not know it. Or...while not true, Cerberus might believe that. They also might believe his actions endanger humanity's survival for some unrelated reason. TIM might have some plan that will put humanity on the top AND defeat the Reapers, and Shepard's actions are interfering with that. Yeah, sounds insane, but I'll still hear him out.

Anyway, TIM as an 100% irredeemable villain would be boring. He was an interesting character in ME2, charismatic and intelligent and yes, morally grey and not black. I'd like him to stay that way.  

[The Elder King]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus going after Shepard might be due to her succumbing to indoctrination -> http://social.biowar...index/8053209/1

I'm not actuallt thrilled by this. I'm ok with Bioware giving us the possibility to work with the Reapers, but not withouth Shepard knowing that. I want to decide what Shepard does.
I hope though that they find something good to explain why Cerberus is working with the Repaers. I hate the fact that they are on the Reaper side. I "like" how they developed TIM and Cerberus in ME2 (though I'm not exactly a big fan of them). I hoped before the news about ME3 that Cerberus would be the human party opposed to the Alliance, and that Shepard will decide which organization to support.

[Ieldra]

Filuto wrote...
Ieldra2 100% agree i hope TIM will not became villain too i love that guy i save the base and altough i know that in me3 cereberus is after me... damn it i would still save the base anyway i really enjoy work for cerberus in me2 cerberus equals awesome ship, perfect squadmate (miranda), and from beginng i use jacob alot too, but of course i did not save base only for these reasons but that is topic for another thread.

If you want to discuss that, look here. It's veered a a little off-topic lately. My own stance on it is on page 21ff.

[The Elder King]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LuxDragon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus going after Shepard might be due to her succumbing to indoctrination -> http://social.biowar...index/8053209/1

Yeah, if Shepard was indoctrinated, shouldn't he be working for the Reapers, not against?

He might be working for the Reapers and not know it. Or...while not true, Cerberus might believe that. They also might believe his actions endanger humanity's survival for some unrelated reason. TIM might have some plan that will put humanity on the top AND defeat the Reapers, and Shepard's actions are interfering with that. Yeah, sounds insane, but I'll still hear him out.

Anyway, TIM as an 100% irredeemable villain would be boring. He was an interesting character in ME2, charismatic and intelligent and yes, morally grey and not black. I'd like him to stay that way.  

I hope that Bioware will not go to the route of Shepard that works with the Reapers withouth knowing it.
Though I agree with you about TIM. He was a very interesting character.

[Ieldra]

I'll interrupt the flow of text for a momen:

[Arijharn]

jtav wrote...

We know he's extremely controlling. We know they were discarded in some fashion. We know he abused Miranda, We know he was willing to use force to retake his daughter. Moreover, we know that the ME writing team tends to be more morally absolutist. So within the confines of the universe, I feel entirely justified in writing him of as a card-carrying villain. You're looking for complexity where none exists. He's no better than Ronald Taylor.

And yet, that still doesn't provide proof that he is, to quote the incredibly awesome Seboist: 'a serial child murderer.'

Wait, I think I only paraphrased, meh I cbf actually finding his quote.

[Filuto]

Check out this guys it is shep/miri romance parody. Watch it until end ! there is hidden scene in credits... video is a bit vulgar but still there are som pretty funny moments

Modifié par Filuto, 09 août 2011 - 10:55 .

[jtav]

It's proven to my satisfaction, given what I know of the universe and the writers. I don't RP Shep, so metagaming is besides the point. And, oddly, I can blame Miranda for destroying my ability to identify or sympathize with Shep in any way. Stupid Lazarus Project.

[Melra]

Filuto wrote...

Dusty Arne wrote...

I want to be able to put a bullet in her brain.. Cerberus Scum!

My soldier male shepard, is with Liara. (never cheated on her). and hates humans.

My vanguard female shepard is with Kaidan. (never cheated on him). and dislikes humans.

Lmao  you must really dislike humans 

Hating their own kind.. How original.

[Perfecti0nist]

Dusty Arne wrote...

I want to be able to put a bullet in her brain.. Cerberus Scum!

My soldier male shepard, is with Liara. (never cheated on her). and hates humans.

My vanguard female shepard is with Kaidan. (never cheated on him). and dislikes humans.

Look in the mirror, you might want to put a bullet in your brain too. I can help.

[jtav]

To be fair, I hate humanity as presented in ME. Doesn't mean I hate actual humans.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
It's proven to my satisfaction, given what I know of the universe and the writers. I don't RP Shep, so metagaming is besides the point. And, oddly, I can blame Miranda for destroying my ability to identify or sympathize with Shep in any way. Stupid Lazarus Project.

If I may ask: what about the Lazarus Project destroyed your ability to identify with Shepard? I can understand being unable to identify with them because of the way they're portrayed, but I can't find anything particularly objectionable in the Lazarus Project.

[jtav]

Two things: I'm religious and tended to play my Shepard's that way. Coming back from the dead would be a huge deal and prompt an existential crisis, Shepard barely reacts. Two: I still have no clue why Shepard is so essential to the war, he can't stay dead.Symbol? Governments have washed their hands of him. This isn't DA, where only a specific person can defeat the villain. It isn't even Star Wars. Why not train that army? I can come up with rationales--namely they had the tech and Shep made a good guinea pig--but it's nowhere presented in game.

[Filuto]

Shepard is symbol in me universe well yes but main reason i think is that he is best man for the job. Given his reputation: sole survivor ruthless etc. take your pick in each scenario he kicked a*s and he defeat saren and saved citade...l he basicly saved galaxy from first attack of reapers i men come on... if that is not good reason to bring him back i do not know what is ..... to quote miranda: you're practically a perfect bloody human specimen.

Modifié par Filuto, 09 août 2011 - 02:06 .

[Melra]

Still there are others who can do the exactly same thing. There's tons of humans to go around. He's just a game hero, that's the reason he's back.

[Glory_Man]

No thats not it.. Remember Shepard is the only being in the entire universe who has the cipher, The total knowledge of the protheans and all that ****.. And there might be more:) In ME2 we are brought back as a symbol and as the only human who knows enough about the reapers etc to do something about it.. Plus, we kick ass:)

[jtav]

And once you talk about raising someone from the dead, you have a much higher burden of proof than normal. It'd be different if they really needed the Cipher or something, but this smacks of "because he's the hero." Heck you could even make Miranda and TIM slightly unhinged believers in the Great Nab theory of history.

[Filuto]

jtav you still talk about raising from dead  like it is som kind of miracle...and you are right it is miracle in real world(that is world beyond our windows with best graphic ) but in ME universe is just matter of money... since i attend medical school i was think about principle of that technology (becase i like scifi based on real possibilities) and i think it would be possible only problem is restore memory but i thing that longterm memories could partially survive depends on damage of shep body and how long take them retrieve body. and yes he is hero and bioware needs him

Modifié par Filuto, 09 août 2011 - 06:20 .

[LuxDragon]

Meh, I think you're getting way into the backstory, jtav, but whatever.

[Td1984]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus going after Shepard might be due to her succumbing to indoctrination -> http://social.biowar...index/8053209/1

Now THAT would definitely kill the game for me, moreso than anything else.

[Ieldra]

I agree that ME2 should have touched on the existential dimension of bringing someone back from the dead. I also agree that the question "why Shepard" doesn't have a satisfactory answer and that the bringing-back-from-the-dead appears as a not-well-thought-out attempt at a character reset. But that doesn't have a significant influence on my identification. Shepard's occassional stupidity and lack of subtlety is a much greater hindrance.

[Ieldra]