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"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


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#81076
Ieldra

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fiendishchicken wrote...

jtav wrote...

@Taboo

If you knew the slightest thing about my worldview, you would not have called me a Randian. I hold Objectivism is an evil philosophy. And I will not leave because intellectual bullies like you who try to stifle debate by being needlessly verbose, filling this thread with spam, and acting as if you are the grand arbiter of Miranda's character. I want BW to know how bad, even offensive, her character arc was in ME3 so that future games will be better.


Query: Why is Miranda offensive to you in Mass Effect 3?

If I may put in my answer: because her ME3 character arc comes with the messages "normal is good, exceptional is evil", "discarding your ideals for the sake of family is good" and similar things. Starting, btw, with the LotSB dossier. Maybe that wasn't intended and it was just bad writing. It doesn't matter. If it was, then I am rightly complaining about the bad writing, and if it wasn't, then I'm rightly complaining about the offensive messages attached to my favorite character.

As for the politics, you might notice those messages come from different ends of the spectrum. It isn't that easy to categorize.

Posted Image

BTW:
I like Yannkee's double-image Miranda picture. The one with this picture on one side and one taken after the encounter with Oriana on the other. Perhaps we could agree that's a good representation of her?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2012 - 11:29 .


#81077
Ieldra

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krukow wrote...
Shep's been around for two games, his character is established.

But it's our character. If any character should be open to our influence to shape, it's Shepard. That worked reasonably well for two games. Now we are confronted with complaints about Shepard being OOC because we have no choice in lines that define important aspects of his character.

Shepard has been malleable for two games and now he isn't. Miranda had been written as an NPC - by definition less malleable - for one complete game as a character with a certain complex personality, I'd say that simplifying her in ME3 is not doing her justice.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2012 - 11:35 .


#81078
krukow

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Ieldra2 wrote...

krukow wrote...
Shep's been around for two games, his character is established.

But it's our character. If any character should be open to our influence to shape, it's Shepard. That worked reasonably well for two games. Now we are confronted with complaints about Shepard being OOC because we have no choice in lines that define important aspects of his character.

Shepard has been malleable for two games and now he isn't. Miranda had been written for one complete game as a character with a certain complex personality, I'd say that simplifying her in ME3 is not doing her justice.

Well, you're getting a bit off topic from what I was saying.

The "the fight's here" line can be ooc because Shep is an established thing.  The CB line isn't out of character, because she's still being established as a character.  Her arc is completing.

Now saying she was OOC in ME3 I'm more sympathetic too, but I fall in the "it just wasn't shown because she didn't get enough content" camp.  I don't think her character chagned, I just think one part was highlighted over the other.  Though I am more willing to hear out this arguement.

The CB line is fine though.

#81079
Ieldra

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@krukow:
It's the other way round for me. I'm willing to accept that "lack of content" was the reason Miranda appears simplified. There is, after all, the e-mail and the iPhone message. Even though I'm not completely convinced that *someone* at Bioware didn't want those messages to be sent and someone else intervened when the sh*t hit the fan after the November leak. The CB line, however, is atrocious. I can't reconcile it, neither with ME2 nor with ME3 Miranda. Yeah, it's my pet peeve, but I stand by it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2012 - 11:51 .


#81080
David7204

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What exactly is the "CB" line?

#81081
Skullheart

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David7204 wrote...

What exactly is the "CB" line?


"Using anything from this base seems like a betrayal."

About keeping the CB

#81082
David7204

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...I've heard multiple people on this thread tell me that Miranda should have been involved with Cerberus more in ME 3, should have had a big moment of regret or something about working with them and confess to Shepard. (Which, for the record, I've always thought and still think is a lousy idea.) I've heard that Miranda's separation from Cerberus was very good character development and her refusal to the Illusive Man on the suicide mission was great. Basically, "Miranda needs to feel regret for working with Cerberus."

And now people are upset because she says a line that supports all of that...?

She can't agree with the Illusive Man one moment and then refuse to follow his orders the next.

Modifié par David7204, 04 octobre 2012 - 01:17 .


#81083
Sable Rhapsody

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Good grief, apparently I need to go through several hundred pages of thread just to figure out what sets y'all off XP

Though I will say I found Paragon Shepard's lines about the Collector Base to be a little maudlin too. I dumped the thing because I didn't trust TIM with it, not because of any particularly grand reasoning about fear and humanity's soul or somesuch.

#81084
fiendishchicken

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Skyper's:

Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone home?

#81085
David7204

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Yes, that's one of several of Shepard's lines in ME 2 that could use a slight revision.

#81086
Taboo

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I'm here.

I'm also working on a solution to our problem.

#81087
Taboo

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Ieldra2 wrote...


If I may put in my answer: because her ME3 character arc comes with the messages "normal is good, exceptional is evil", "discarding your ideals for the sake of family is good" and similar things. Starting, btw, with the LotSB dossier. Maybe that wasn't intended and it was just bad writing. It doesn't matter. If it was, then I am rightly complaining about the bad writing, and if it wasn't, then I'm rightly complaining about the offensive messages attached to my favorite character.

As for the politics, you might notice those messages come from different ends of the spectrum. It isn't that easy to categorize.


I apologize for being blunt. You are nitpicking details and looking for plots where there are none. It's in your head. All of it.

Everything in there doesn't come as a shock to me and others in here as well. We were expecting this. YOU are the odd ducks in here now, not us.

This IS the character that was going to come out for quite a few of us. It's unbalanced but no amount of DLC will fix your issues with it. Ever. You're behaving in much the same manner that the people in the story forum are. Same old thing in brand new drag. Day after day it's the same complaint in different formats.

That's why I keep telling you to move on. It isn't a threat and it isn't an attempt at being mean. It's a fact. It isn't going to change now and isn't going to change tomorrow. The endings are the way they are. Miranda is the way she is.

#81088
Caihn

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Though I will say I found Paragon Shepard's lines about the Collector Base to be a little maudlin too. I dumped the thing because I didn't trust TIM with it, not because of any particularly grand reasoning about fear and humanity's soul or somesuch.


Yeah but Miranda's line has nothing to do with this kind of reasoning.

Miranda simply knew that letting TIM use something from the base would lead to this :

Posted ImagePosted Image
(or even worst)

Not OOC, even for the more pragmatic version of Miranda.
This line only confims that she's a good judge of character and that she doesn't want Cerberus to cross the line.

Modifié par Yannkee, 04 octobre 2012 - 02:25 .


#81089
enayasoul

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Exactly what Yankee said! At least some of us get it.

Taboo... these two topics below are very interesting and wished I'd been there to listen to what went down, damn.

Quote:
How women are portrayed is a popular topic of discussion. What she does, what she says, how she acts around Shepard.

And her position in the engine room. That was a rather enlightening discussion.

End quote

I find those topics fascinating care to elaborate on those here or in an email or something guys/gals.

Modifié par enayasoul, 04 octobre 2012 - 02:37 .


#81090
dtrain24

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David7204 wrote...

...I've heard multiple people on this thread tell me that Miranda should have been involved with Cerberus more in ME 3, should have had a big moment of regret or something about working with them and confess to Shepard. (Which, for the record, I've always thought and still think is a lousy idea.) I've heard that Miranda's separation from Cerberus was very good character development and her refusal to the Illusive Man on the suicide mission was great. Basically, "Miranda needs to feel regret for working with Cerberus."

And now people are upset because she says a line that supports all of that...?

She can't agree with the Illusive Man one moment and then refuse to follow his orders the next.


Well it is good character development. Miranda thought she believed in Cerberus. And she's definitely not a saint. But she realized the Illusive Man's wanting to take the Collector Base was going too far.  She said it seemed like a betrayal based on all the heinous acts committed inside like melting humans down to feed the Reaper.

#81091
fiendishchicken

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David7204 wrote...

Yes, that's one of several of Shepard's lines in ME 2 that could use a slight revision.


"YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY POWER! :devil:"

#81092
CrutchCricket

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Taboo-XX wrote...
I apologize for being blunt. You are nitpicking details and looking for plots where there are none. It's in your head. All of it.

Everything in there doesn't come as a shock to me and others in here as well. We were expecting this. YOU are the odd ducks in here now, not us.

This IS the character that was going to come out for quite a few of us. It's unbalanced but no amount of DLC will fix your issues with it. Ever. You're behaving in much the same manner that the people in the story forum are. Same old thing in brand new drag. Day after day it's the same complaint in different formats.

That's why I keep telling you to move on. It isn't a threat and it isn't an attempt at being mean. It's a fact. It isn't going to change now and isn't going to change tomorrow. The endings are the way they are. Miranda is the way she is.

OK you've said a bunch of these things so many times that I feel justified in thinking that you mean them. Things like:

"We were expecting this"

"This is the character"

"It's unbalanced/one sided"

"It can't be fixed."

These and your persistent habit of completely misrepresenting some of the complains lead me to believe that either you're not aware of the subtleties of the criticisms or you're willingfully ignoring them.

First off, purely out of curiousity, I'd like to know exactly what you and these "others" were expecting and how you came to expect it? And when, I suppose is important as well.

Secondly, when we talk about Miranda, discussion about her character can usually be lumped into two categories, the professional, pragmatic operative/scientist side and the personal inner human being, yes? In ME2 we got to see both with her work in Cerberus and her feelings for Oriana and possibly Shepard. In ME3 all we saw, or most of it dealt with the personal. Hence the comment that her role was one sided. Agree?

Now why exactly can this not be fixed? If you have two sides and you've so far favored one, what exactly is stopping you from adding content to the other, thus balancing it out? Sounds exactly like the type of thing DLC can fix. If you say no, they won't allocate resources, that's an entirely different question altogether. Now you're talking about the likelyhood of something being done, not whether it can or cannot be done.

So if you agree that her role is one-sided, why do you take so much issue to complaints about the very same thing? Why do you insist that "this is her character" then turn around and say "yes, it's one sided, we're not being shown some things"?

Of course that's not all Ieldra and others have said about it. I happen to agree that their doom and gloom about writer intent and how they wanted to ****** on ambition and scientific development is unfounded. And I have said so from day one. If they choose to interpet it as such, that's their business but it is not fact. Regardless, that doesn't detract from the very poignant observation that we missed out on a great deal of what made Miranda special and that her part could've been handled better. She should've had some reaction to Cerberus, a throwaway comment even.

You however seem to not differentiate between the questionably warranted pessimism and these legitimate claims that you yourself agree with, instead lumping it all together as some deluded wish to make Miranda a robot and writing it off as such.

But the simple truth is no has ever preached that. We all appreciate her human side. It's just that some of us are also fans of the professional side and some admittedly find that side more fascinating. And in these cases, ME3 has left them wanting.

#81093
fiendishchicken

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CrutchCricket wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
I apologize for being blunt. You are nitpicking details and looking for plots where there are none. It's in your head. All of it.

Everything in there doesn't come as a shock to me and others in here as well. We were expecting this. YOU are the odd ducks in here now, not us.

This IS the character that was going to come out for quite a few of us. It's unbalanced but no amount of DLC will fix your issues with it. Ever. You're behaving in much the same manner that the people in the story forum are. Same old thing in brand new drag. Day after day it's the same complaint in different formats.

That's why I keep telling you to move on. It isn't a threat and it isn't an attempt at being mean. It's a fact. It isn't going to change now and isn't going to change tomorrow. The endings are the way they are. Miranda is the way she is.

OK you've said a bunch of these things so many times that I feel justified in thinking that you mean them. Things like:

"We were expecting this"

"This is the character"

"It's unbalanced/one sided"

"It can't be fixed."

These and your persistent habit of completely misrepresenting some of the complains lead me to believe that either you're not aware of the subtleties of the criticisms or you're willingfully ignoring them.

First off, purely out of curiousity, I'd like to know exactly what you and these "others" were expecting and how you came to expect it? And when, I suppose is important as well.

Secondly, when we talk about Miranda, discussion about her character can usually be lumped into two categories, the professional, pragmatic operative/scientist side and the personal inner human being, yes? In ME2 we got to see both with her work in Cerberus and her feelings for Oriana and possibly Shepard. In ME3 all we saw, or most of it dealt with the personal. Hence the comment that her role was one sided. Agree?

Now why exactly can this not be fixed? If you have two sides and you've so far favored one, what exactly is stopping you from adding content to the other, thus balancing it out? Sounds exactly like the type of thing DLC can fix. If you say no, they won't allocate resources, that's an entirely different question altogether. Now you're talking about the likelyhood of something being done, not whether it can or cannot be done.

So if you agree that her role is one-sided, why do you take so much issue to complaints about the very same thing? Why do you insist that "this is her character" then turn around and say "yes, it's one sided, we're not being shown some things"?

Of course that's not all Ieldra and others have said about it. I happen to agree that their doom and gloom about writer intent and how they wanted to ****** on ambition and scientific development is unfounded. And I have said so from day one. If they choose to interpet it as such, that's their business but it is not fact. Regardless, that doesn't detract from the very poignant observation that we missed out on a great deal of what made Miranda special and that her part could've been handled better. She should've had some reaction to Cerberus, a throwaway comment even.

You however seem to not differentiate between the questionably warranted pessimism and these legitimate claims that you yourself agree with, instead lumping it all together as some deluded wish to make Miranda a robot and writing it off as such.

But the simple truth is no has ever preached that. We all appreciate her human side. It's just that some of us are also fans of the professional side and some admittedly find that side more fascinating. And in these cases, ME3 has left them wanting.


At least you didn't question his sexuality today.

#81094
CrutchCricket

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fiendishchicken wrote...
At least you didn't question his sexuality today.

What are you, his bodyguard?

He can speak for himself.

And when have I questioned his sexuality?

#81095
fiendishchicken

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CrutchCricket wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...
At least you didn't question his sexuality today.

What are you, his bodyguard?

He can speak for himself.

And when have I questioned his sexuality?


No, I'm his buddy. I'm gonna stick up for him. 

He's not here at the moment, hence his absence of a post.

You questioned him yesterday. Would you like me to quote you?

#81096
krukow

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fiendishchicken wrote...

At least you didn't question his sexuality today.

Taboo has a sexuality?

#81097
CrutchCricket

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fiendishchicken wrote...
No, I'm his buddy. I'm gonna stick up for him. 

He's not here at the moment, hence his absence of a post.

Stick up for him? It's an internet forum, not "the streets".

It's telling though, that anything or anyone you don't agree with, you precieve as an attack/attacking.

You questioned him yesterday. Would you like me to quote you?

Oh this should be good.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:02 .


#81098
fiendishchicken

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He's my friend. I stand up for my friends. It's who I am. If you have a problem with that, that's on you.

CrutchCricket wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
In an AU of course.

In the abscence of evidence the burden of proof is on you.Without any evidence to support yourself your opinion is invalidated. You're using a logical fallacy to justify your opinion.

She is heterosexual in the canon universe.

I mean I'm flamboyant enough for most people to think I'm Bisexual. I'm not. Just because someone says nothing pertaining to sexuality it doesn't mean they are one way or the other.

Burden of proof? It's a character interpretation. As long as it does not contradict canon (and there is no definitive answer on Miranda's orientation) it's valid. I don't know if jtav's version does or not, I didn't read it.

And if you don't correct them, people will be justified in imagining you're bi (based on your last comment). Has nothing to do with what you actually are, but how people can interpret you.


Here's your post Crutch.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:11 .


#81099
CrutchCricket

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fiendishchicken wrote...

He's my friend. I stand up for my friends. It's who I am. If you have a problem with that, that's on you.

Oh I'm not the one with the problem. All I'm saying is, if you treat everything you disagree with as an attack, you're the one pushing the militantism (that's a word now) in the thread.

CrutchCricket wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
In an AU of course.

In the abscence of evidence the burden of proof is on you.Without any evidence to support yourself your opinion is invalidated. You're using a logical fallacy to justify your opinion.

She is heterosexual in the canon universe.

I mean I'm flamboyant enough for most people to think I'm Bisexual. I'm not. Just because someone says nothing pertaining to sexuality it doesn't mean they are one way or the other.

Burden of proof? It's a character interpretation. As long as it does not contradict canon (and there is no definitive answer on Miranda's orientation) it's valid. I don't know if jtav's version does or not, I didn't read it.

And if you don't correct them, people will be justified in imagining you're bi (based on your last comment). Has nothing to do with what you actually are, but how people can interpret you.

Here's your post Crutch.

On the other hand, if you're going to "stick up for your friends", maybe you should pick your spots better.

Taboo said the underlined. My comment was a direct reply to it, with no malice whatsoever. Read it more carefully.
Based on what he said (that he's flamboyant enough for people to think he's bi), I said that people are justified in doing so as a result unless he corrects them because there is reason for them to do so (he's flamboyant enough).

Remember what you told me about your friend who drew the wrong conclusion about you? If you had said "I dressed in drag and then my friend thought I was gay" I could've replied that he was justified in doing so until you corrected him. Where's the insult?

Ironically you missed the part that was a bit of a personal jab, though even that was no real insult.

Your loyalty is admirable. Just be more precise next time, and less reactionary.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:23 .


#81100
Caihn

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If people want to spam in this thread that Miranda in ME3 is not Miranda, maybe they should rename this thread "The impostor of ME3" and let people create their own Miranda thread to discuss peacefully about the character.

Modifié par Yannkee, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:26 .