82199 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

I remember how saddened I felt when ME3 first released. I was in 10th grade and it broke my heart to see something I loved so dearly completely and totally ruined. I remember hosting Xbox Live parties where groups of friends and myself would just spend hours talking about the game and the ending while playing either the multiplayer or another game (usually Gears of War).

 

I honestly kind of want to go back to that time, just for the Gears marathoning I would do. I also liked the old BSN format more than I do the current.

[Han Shot First]

lol you know, I never bought the "Oh the writers want her dead" thingy. But now that I look back at all the bloody things you have to achieve to make her survive, it does feel rather ridiculous.

But in the end there might be hundreds of different reasons why the writers decided this, we can only speculate and will never know. Might be an interesting question to ask the writers if ever possible.

 

It might have been an overreaction to criticism she received after Mass Effect 2 was released. Similar to how people complained about Liara being difficult to kill in ME3, people griped about Miranda being tough to kill on the Suicide Mission.

 

I have no problem with Miranda being a potential casualty in Mass Effect 3, but having her ability to survive be linked to relationship status was silly.

[CrutchCricket]

That's it, replaying the trilogy. I miss Miri.

 

Man I remember when ME3 hadn't come out yet. People kept spamming, hoping the devs would read their posts, believe that was what the fans wanted and wrote her like accordingly. Ah, the naivety of youth.

Lead to some decent debates, though.

Yeah because those people listened... like Helen Keller does.

 

Also you raise an interesting question: should writers ever follow the desires of the community on how should the character behave or should they stick to their own vision ? And how can they know what does the community want since people have very different perspectives on the same character (rofl, remember our....."civil war".....oh Lord).

The creator of fiction, or art in general (as in, actual art, not "art") should always have first and final say. However in large corporate projects such as this, the creative feel is always dampened, if not eclipsed altogether by the business side. And necessarily so, I might add. There are too many people who work to create games like this to just leave the creative free spirits unchecked. And at the end of the day business is business. Reward must be greater than cost.

 

Here is where I believe fans can come in. Fans who have no business side to make them lose touch with the feel of the work. Authors of large projects may lose sight of the creative merit of their vision in the pursuit of the pragmatics of actualizing it. Fans on the other hand never do. They are always on the receiving end of that merit and there's nothing to distract them from it. In less flowery terms, I imagine it's similar to fans knowing more about a character than the actor does or know the story and lore better than the director. Fans live and breathe the stuff, and on an individual basis. Creators of large works do not, because they're never alone with it, and they always have to be aware of the realities of making it. Even single authors of smaller works disengage to some extent when the writing is finished. And though I strongly disagree with the sentiment that this transfers control from author to audience, I do think it shifts the dynamics a bit. So in short: fans should never be ignored because for the most part they've got their finger on the pulse a lot more than the creators do. That being said, the creator still reigns supreme. Fans should advise but never ultimately decide.

 

It might have been an overreaction to criticism she received after Mass Effect 2 was released. Similar to how people complained about Liara being difficult to kill in ME3, people griped about Miranda being tough to kill on the Suicide Mission.

Because "hard to kill" and "impossible to kill" are the same thing...

 

Liara will be similar to Miranda when the latter gets her own DLC clumsily stapling her to the main plot, cannot be killed or even repelled in conversation and the former is created merely to be an expendable filler for an ill-advised (or at least ill-timed) game mechanic.

 

Please note: I actually like Liara. But the comparison is ridiculous.

[Han Shot First]

 

Because "hard to kill" and "impossible to kill" are the same thing...

 

Liara will be similar to Miranda when the latter gets her own DLC clumsily stapling her to the main plot, cannot be killed or even repelled in conversation and the former is created merely to be an expendable filler for an ill-advised (or at least ill-timed) game mechanic.

 

Please note: I actually like Liara. But the comparison is ridiculous.

 

Liara isn't impossible to kill. Even prior to the Extended Cut she could die on the beam rush. Most people missed it however because it only occurred on Low EMS playthroughs, and didn't get a cutscene. Your squadmates would just be lying dead off to the side when Shepard regained consciousness, so even people who were on a Low EMS playthrough could miss that they were dead.

 

In any case whether or not Liara was tougher to kill in ME3 than Miranda in ME2 is not the point. The point is that Miranda received the same sort of criticism after Mass Effect 2 that Liara got after Mass Effect 3, and Bioware has a track record of often overreacting to negative fan feedback. Perhaps the biggest example of that is the disappearance of the Mako after Mass Effect 1. Rather than correct the issues with it, it was scrapped all together. Another is the inventory system of Mass Effect 1, which was also panned. In ME2 there was no inventory. There might be other examples as well. After Mass Effect 1 there were complaints of ninjamancing by all three potential LIs, but Liara got more criticism than the other two because one of the two lines of dialogue to refuse a romance with her was bugged. In Mass Effect 3 she then got multiple "Are you sure?" prompts before her romance would actually lock in, frustrating players who intended Liara to be Shepard's LI. Given that no other squadmate gives the protagonist so many chances to back out of the romance path, it is hard not to see that as an overreaction to criticism in the first game.

 

So those sort of things also lead me to suspect that Miranda being so easy to kill in Mass Effect 3 is an overreaction to criticism that she was difficult to lose on the Suicide Mission, or to gripes that she got too much screen time in ME2 compared to some other squad mates. To be clear I don't agree with the criticism Miranda got after Mass Effect 2. In fact she was my Shepard's LI in that game. I'm just acknowledging that the criticism existed, and I don't think her fragility in Mass Effect 3 is a coincidence.

[CrutchCricket]

Liara isn't impossible to kill. Even prior to the Extended Cut she could die on the beam rush. Most people missed it however because it only occurred on Low EMS playthroughs, and didn't get a cutscene. Your squadmates would just be lying dead off to the side when Shepard regained consciousness, so even people who were on a Low EMS playthrough could miss that they were dead.

Tell me you're joking. Did you really use the "well if everything dies, I guess Liara dies too" card? So on one hand, death via manipulation of a specific variable. On the other, death via pretty much losing the game. You're really going to try to say they're equivalent?

 

In any case whether or not Liara was tougher to kill in ME3 than Miranda in ME2 is not the point. The point is that Miranda received the same sort of criticism after Mass Effect 2 that Liara got after Mass Effect 3, and Bioware has a track record of often overreacting to negative fan feedback. Perhaps the biggest example of that is the disappearance of the Mako after Mass Effect 1. Rather than correct the issues with it, it was scrapped all together. Another is the inventory system of Mass Effect 1, which was also panned. In ME2 there was no inventory. There might be other examples as well. After Mass Effect 1 there were complaints of ninjamancing by all three potential LIs, but Liara got more criticism than the other two because one of the two lines of dialogue to refuse a romance with her was bugged. In Mass Effect 3 she then got multiple "Are you sure?" prompts before her romance would actually lock in, frustrating players who intended Liara to be Shepard's LI. Given that no other squadmate gives the protagonist so many chances to back out of the romance path, it is hard not to see that as an overreaction to criticism in the first game.

 

So those sort of things also lead me to suspect that Miranda being so easy to kill in Mass Effect 3 is an overreaction to criticism that she was difficult to lose on the Suicide Mission, or to gripes that she got too much screen time in ME2 compared to some other squad mates. To be clear I don't agree with the criticism Miranda got after Mass Effect 2. In fact she was my Shepard's LI in that game. I'm just acknowledging that the criticism existed, and I don't think her fragility in Mass Effect 3 is a coincidence.

I kinda doubt it. People were complaing about the aforementioned ninjamancing long before ME3 came out. I was already hearing "writers pet" and "Walters' favorite" eight months before the third game hit. I don't doubt Miranda recieved her own share of hate, especially when ME2 first came out but I'd be willing to be this was eclipsed quite readily when Shadow Broker came out.

 

Otherwise I don't see the difficulty of killing Miranda in ME2 as any great hurdle (one way vs many is still not as blatant as no way vs many). And I don't think "too much screentime" was something that really applied back then. I expect a lot of fans were pissed that the whole squad was removed in favor of these new people. But I don't know that that would fall on Miranda specifically, even if she was the "frontperson" of ME2. Finally, even if that's true there was still a third game to fix it. So no, I don't think the fan complaints can be compared at all.

 

But even if I grant all of that, I don't think "Bioware overreaction" covers it. Unlike the Mako or the inventory system, people (quite a few of them) did warm up to the ME2 squad and they had two years to do so. And when the time for it came, people shouted their requests for the ME2 squad loud and clear. I don't know who if anyone, wanted the Mako back.

 

Well, actually I did. Mako or Hammerhead. Going down to random planets> planet scanning. But I never offically asked for it.

[Han Shot First]

Tell me you're joking. Did you really use the "well if everything dies, I guess Liara dies too" card? So on one hand, death via manipulation of a specific variable. On the other, death via pretty much losing the game. You're really going to try to say they're equivalent?

 

 

Unrustle those jimmies sport. I never made any claims one way or another about which character was harder to kill.

 

I stated that Miranda being difficult to kill on the Suicide Mission received criticism, similar to how Liara only dying on Low EMS playthroughs of ME3 received criticism. I was comparing the criticism received, not stating that the circumstances in which they could die was the same.

[CrutchCricket]

Unrustle those jimmies sport. I never made any claims one way or another about which character was harder to kill.

 

I stated that Miranda being difficult to kill on the Suicide Mission received criticism, similar to how Liara only dying on Low EMS playthroughs of ME3 received criticism. I was comparing the criticism received, not stating that the circumstances in which they could die was the same.

 

And I'm stating they're not similar at all, champ.

 

Liara was introduced in a game where only two specific events can kill two (technically three, but not at the same time) squadmates. Miranda was introduced in a game where everybody could die. The inclusion of Tali and Garrus in ME2 meant they could be killed as well which brought our total mortal squadmate count to 15. Who's the outlier, who can never die, no matter what you do?

 

Their situations have never been similar. ME2 flat out told you- play your cards right because anyone can bite it. It's why this whole convoluted mess of replacing the whole squad happened in the first place- they couldn't bear to kill those poor ME1 squadmates so they came up with some new expendable chumps. If people really did complain about an expendable character not being expendable enough, the BSN really is/was dumber than I could imagine.

[Lawrence0294]

Well I think Han Shot First does hold a point. As stated, Bioware is indeed well known for overreacting to criticism and although ME2 squadmates very much got loved after release, Miranda received a very bipolar reaction, where people loved her or detested her.

 

As often happens in BSN, people with negative opinions get their voices heard stronger, and those who hated Miranda might have strongly complained that she was the most difficult Squadmate to kill. Of course it is massively silly as it is very easy to kill her if you know how to, but, well... people are silly in general. Therefore it is not so far fetched to believe this reaction could've slightly pushed Bioware to make Miranda far more easy to kill. Who bloody knows.

 

Speculations everywhere yes?

[o Ventus]

I don't know if "silly" is the proper term. I prefer "retarded" or "stupid". They're stronger for emphasis, and without sacrificing the core of the message.

[CrutchCricket]

I still don't think it adds up. "She should be easier to kill" does not mean "dead by default" or "dead unless the stars align". If specifically compensating for this complaint (still cannot headdesk enough) was the objective, something like Samara's situation would've been a lot more appropriate and a lot more obvious. One scene, one decision, framed very clearly, you don't take one interrupt or conversation option, she's dead. More clarity and more player agency. I'm sure the handful of brain cells between the haters could distinguish between "she just dies" and "I get to kill her" and would prefer the latter.

 

Not to mention you could also point to a Samara style situation and go "see, we listened!" as opposed to going "yeah, we listened, see she dies unless you do this and this and *reads itemized shopping list*" Assuming you didn't choke on your own drool from the combined stupidity.

[wright1978]

So those sort of things also lead me to suspect that Miranda being so easy to kill in Mass Effect 3 is an overreaction to criticism that she was difficult to lose on the Suicide Mission, or to gripes that she got too much screen time in ME2 compared to some other squad mates. To be clear I don't agree with the criticism Miranda got after Mass Effect 2. In fact she was my Shepard's LI in that game. I'm just acknowledging that the criticism existed, and I don't think her fragility in Mass Effect 3 is a coincidence.

 

I don't think its to do with criticism of Miranda being hard to kill. I think her being easy to kill was part of their plan to use ME2 squad as cannon fodder to create an emotional effect of the reaper war. Hence why Miranda's isolated from any link to Cerberus and taken on a cheap rehash of her loyalty mission to focus on her softer side & then placed on an altar like a sacrificial lamb. Mordin has a similar arc, moving from being advocate for Genophage to having to be actively convinced to abandon cure coupled with right import conditions. From anecodotal evidence on the forum it worked as i've seen a number of people saying they didn't like ME2 Miranda but were won over by the sacrificial lamb approach. I'm glad they didn't railroad her death but that's about it. They didn't put much effort into her post survives content and i'm extremely annoyed by the decision to focus on the sister angle rather than Cerberus content that should have been the focus imo.

[Lawrence0294]

[o Ventus]

It turns out Miranda really likes gambling.

[CrutchCricket]

Started to rewatch Chuck... We go on like this it's gonna be 2012 all over again.

[Lawrence0294]

Started to rewatch Chuck... We go on like this it's gonna be 2012 all over again.

All we need are more ending discussions, Taboo xx and debate on Miranda's behavior in the collector base. Ah nostalgia =p

[o Ventus]

All we need are more ending discussions

Fine by me. I like complaining. It keeps me sane knowing I can point out all of the flaws with things I see.

[Lawrence0294]

Holy God, those icons are bloody huge =p !

[o Ventus]

Holy God, those icons are bloody huge =p !

I like them. And they finally added in an ME1 badge.

[Lawrence0294]

I like them. And they finally added in an ME1 badge.

Although I think they are a tad too big, it's very nice they included the other games, especially Mass Effect 1 as you said.

[God]

All we need are more ending discussions, Taboo xx and debate on Miranda's behavior in the collector base. Ah nostalgia =p

 

I can help with the former. Taboo had a bit of a breakdown as I understand it. And the behavior in the collector base... meh. 

 

I don't like how the game is so negative about saving the CB.

[God]

Started to rewatch Chuck... We go on like this it's gonna be 2012 all over again.

 

Oh Chuck... Man, I think I can't watch that show anymore. It's just too... childish for me. Plus, I'm still mad I sold my entire blu-ray copy of the series and all I got was $23 for the whole series.

[Lawrence0294]

I can help with the former. Taboo had a bit of a breakdown as I understand it. And the behavior in the collector base... meh. 

 

I don't like how the game is so negative about saving the CB.

Oh wow really ? 

 

Damn, that's really sad to hear, I really liked him. I really hope he's fine now.

 

And yea I found that to be very silly. Although I personally never save the base, I find it ridiculous that all the members that were for keeping the base, do a 180 when you speak with them in the ship. You end up with all your squad thinking the same thing which  I find very...well boring. 

 

And actually the Collector base debate regarded specifically Miranda. Some were quite upset and found Miranda's statements in the base inconsistent with her character. I forgot the specific lines but it regarded her finding it immoral to keep the base with all the horrors that happened in it.

[CrutchCricket]

All we need are more ending discussions, Taboo xx and debate on Miranda's behavior in the collector base. Ah nostalgia =p

Already doing that in Story&Campaign. As for the underlined, no thanks. I hope he's well health wise but I can't say I miss him. Even back in the day he rubbed me the wrong way but reading through some back pages of the thread (yes that's what brought a large chunk of nostalgia and yes work is that slow sometimes) confirmed it: that guy was majorly pretentious, or at least that's what he came across as, willingly or no. If we're wishing users back I'd rather have Ieldra, jtav, Dr.Doctor, MisterJB and flemm. I think everyone but flemm is still around though probably on the DA side.
 

Oh Chuck... Man, I think I can't watch that show anymore. It's just too... childish for me. Plus, I'm still mad I sold my entire blu-ray copy of the series and all I got was $23 for the whole series.

Not sure I'd describe it as childish. I think there is a frame of mind needed to watch the show that we had once and now have... less of. I'd say this: I can see the seams more. The same is true of Mass Effect actually. Or at least what little Citadel convos I redid last week.
 

And yea I found that to be very silly. Although I personally never save the base, I find it ridiculous that all the members that were for keeping the base, do a 180 when you speak with them in the ship. You end up with all your squad thinking the same thing which I find very...well boring.

And actually the Collector base debate regarded specifically Miranda. Some were quite upset and found Miranda's statements in the base inconsistent with her character. I forgot the specific lines but it regarded her finding it immoral to keep the base with all the horrors that happened in it.

I would need to review individual quotes but if I remember correctly the sentiment was in favor of not leaving it to TIM. Which is I think the most sensible chain of reasoning. Acknowledge the value but realize the risks of Cerberus shenanigans are greater than the potential rewards.

And yes the debate was specifically about Miranda's line "Using anything from this base seems like a betrayal". The wording of the line seems to fly in the face of Miranda's established pragmatism. I think you can spin it into being acceptable but it is strange and not how you'd expect her to word it.

[CrutchCricket]

What's with the icons? Is this new? I know they had them on the old BSN. Can't say I missed those either.