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[o Ventus]

And yes the debate was specifically about Miranda's line "Using anything from this base seems like a betrayal". The wording of the line seems to fly in the face of Miranda's established pragmatism. I think you can spin it into being acceptable but it is strange and now how you'd expect her to word it.

I can't say I have much of a problem with her line. She's pragmatic, yes, but not to the point of using tech that was used to kill and liquify hundreds of thousands of people. I don't think even Miranda would go that far.

 

The line could have been written better (the actual phrasing is pretty bad and sounds a bit dumb), but the message is sound.

[CrutchCricket]

I can't say I have much of a problem with her line. She's pragmatic, yes, but not to the point of using tech that was used to kill and liquify hundreds of thousands of people. I don't think even Miranda would go that far.
 
The line could have been written better (the actual phrasing is pretty bad and sounds a bit dumb), but the message is sound.

Well that's the spin (sort of). On the one hand using a gun that killed millions of people is no different than using one freshly built. The "taint" is purely emotional. There's no objective change to the object/technology and thus no rational reason to discount it.
 
In terms of the tech in the base the argument is that it can be used to a) reasearch weaknesses in Reapers or Reaper creatures and/or augment our own technology by studying and replicating the obviously more advanced Collector tech.
 
I argued that any advancments to our own tech we pretty much already had and as far as weaknesses go, we know all we're going to about that as well, unless we're willing to fire it up and liquify people ourselves which would be going too far. So in that sense I'm interpreting "using anything" as "the only usable thing we still have from here is the Reaper Liquifier 5000 and the only way we can learn more about that is from using it ourselves" which would be a betrayal.
 
So to reiterate, using data or tech from atrocities is not inherently bad unless you're continuing those atrocities yourself. I argue that since the only way to productively "use" the CB further is to keep commiting the atrocities, that's where the betrayal line fits. Though the wording is still awkward and unMiranda.

[CrutchCricket]

Goddamn it, anyone know how to force this damn forum to not auto switch b ) [no space] into ? Sometimes it's funny but now it's annoying.

[o Ventus]

Well that's the spin (sort of). On the one hand using a gun that killed millions of people is no different than using one freshly built. The "taint" is purely emotional. There's no objective change to the object/technology and thus no rational reason to discount it.
 

The entire idea is that the "taint" is emotional. Even someone as hard-edged as Miranda has a sentimental side.

 

It's like picking between a knife used by a burglar to threaten people in their homes, and a knife used by John Wayne Gacy to kill a bunch of people. One was used for far worse things than the other and thus carries a darker connotation, even though their both just sharpened pieces of metal with a grip.

[CrutchCricket]

The entire idea is that the "taint" is emotional. Even someone as hard-edged as Miranda has a sentimental side.

 

It's like picking between a knife used by a burglar to threaten people in their homes, and a knife used by John Wayne Gacy to kill a bunch of people. One was used for far worse things than the other and thus carries a darker connotation, even though their both just sharpened pieces of metal with a grip.

True, but the argument is that she wouldn't let sentimentality decide where reason should. And this I happen to agree with. Hence why I provided a rational justification for the line.

 

If you had the choice between the burglar knife and the serial killer knife, objectively they are equivalent (assuming stabbing all those people didn't dull the latter). So in that case with no rational reason to choose one over the other sentimentality may be employed to choose the former. But that's not the choice here. The choice is you have the serial killer knife- do you study it in the hopes of learning the secret to a sharper blade? And rationally there is no reason why you shouldn't- unless you know all there is to know about blade making and the only thing you could do with the knife is keep stabbing people. In that case, keeping it might be defined as a betrayal. Or just kinda creepy.

[wright1978]

Oh Chuck... Man, I think I can't watch that show anymore. It's just too... childish for me. Plus, I'm still mad I sold my entire blu-ray copy of the series and all I got was $23 for the whole series.

 

Still watch it now and then. Of course i ignore the terrible last season and imagine it didn't happen.

[God]

Already doing that in Story&Campaign. As for the underlined, no thanks. I hope he's well health wise but I can't say I miss him. Even back in the day he rubbed me the wrong way but reading through some back pages of the thread (yes that's what brought a large chunk of nostalgia and yes work is that slow sometimes) confirmed it: that guy was majorly pretentious, or at least that's what he came across as, willingly or no. If we're wishing users back I'd rather have Ieldra, jtav, Dr.Doctor, MisterJB and flemm. I think everyone but flemm is still around though probably on the DA side.

 

Indeed. I was once in a skype, and later a twitter group with him, and he is intelligent and capable, though not nearly as much so as he thinks he is. 

 

Granted, he was good for talking about Miranda and defending her. Still, he didn't like how others interpreted the character, and he wasn't willing to let it go, thus resulting in the infamous Miranda war that got the entire character forum nuked. Things are much more stable here without him.

 

Granted, I think I'm the only member of the old posse (sans O Ventus) that he had going. And I don't know about him, but I had a falling out with most of those members. Looking back, their reaction is hilarious.

[God]

True, but the argument is that she wouldn't let sentimentality decide where reason should. And this I happen to agree with. Hence why I provided a rational justification for the line.

 

 

She's definitely more emotional than she let's on, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do get the vibe that despite her cool pragmatism, Miranda does have some boundaries that she isn't willing to cross. She isn't necessarily opposed to the idea of keeping the Collector Base, but she is uncomfortable with the implications of such.

[Lawrence0294]

Indeed. I was once in a skype, and later a twitter group with him, and he is intelligent and capable, though not nearly as much so as he thinks he is. 

 

Granted, he was good for talking about Miranda and defending her. Still, he didn't like how others interpreted the character, and he wasn't willing to let it go, thus resulting in the infamous Miranda war that got the entire character forum nuked. Things are much more stable here without him.

 

Granted, I think I'm the only member of the old posse (sans O Ventus) that he had going. And I don't know about him, but I had a falling out with most of those members. Looking back, their reaction is hilarious.

 

He was rather pretentious yes, but he really was a pretty smart guy. I don't know, I really liked him and actually do miss him. 

I got on Skype with him as well several times and he really helped me a lot on matters. But yes, the fact that he didn't let things go could be easily irritating sometimes.

 

However I don't think our little fall out was the reason the forums were closed, at least not completely. Although it might have been the last drop, Mr. Priestly often stated how much he disliked the romance forums and noted their "toxicity" several times. I think he was thinking of closing them for some time and saw our "crisis" as the last straw.

 

She's definitely more emotional than she let's on, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do get the vibe that despite her cool pragmatism, Miranda does have some boundaries that she isn't willing to cross. She isn't necessarily opposed to the idea of keeping the Collector Base, but she is uncomfortable with the implications of such.

I think this debate brings a very interesting question on writing a character. One might see Miranda's statement as character progression, others might say it's character inconsistency. It's a very blurry line. I guess the best way to remain in the progression category, a writer should lay the ground works. Then again, can you do character progression by surprising the audience?

[CrutchCricket]

Ah yes the skype groups. I didn't know you were involved Lawrence, at the time they seemed predominantly female, something which I and a few others found a little troubling. There's a word for it I could use that wouldn't be particularly charitable so out of respect for the other members at least, I'll just leave it at that.

 

He was smart alright. Smart enough to use old animosities and enmities and get under people's skins to rip this fanbase right down the middle. Which is what he wanted apparently. To be the only game in town regarding Miranda interpretation. And hypocritical to boot. Imagine my surprise when I see that only a few pages after he started posting here he's making the same kind of personal judgement/ad hominem that he thought I made towards him which led to a whole separate freakout including what seemed like an attempt to rally the S/S community against me. If that guy wasn't doing whatever the the hell he's doing in showbiz, he'd have made a great politician.

 

And handing Priestly his most bountiful ammunition in closing this forum makes him just as responsible in my book. Ugh. Priestly. There's another I could say some choice words about.

 

But enough about people no longer here and who'll hopefully never darken our doorstep again. Let's get back to Miranda.

 

I stick by my interpretation of the CB situation but I do wish her refusal had more to do with distrusting TIM- the bigger issue behind keeping the base. Especially since she does express that a line later when TIM orders her to stop Shepard. "Or what, you'll replace me next?" The whole flow of that exchange could've been improved.

[God]

He was rather pretentious yes, but he really was a pretty smart guy. I don't know, I really liked him and actually do miss him. 

I got on Skype with him as well several times and he really helped me a lot on matters. But yes, the fact that he didn't let things go could be easily irritating sometimes.

 

 

 

I won't lie, we tended to get into dick dragging contests, Taboo and I. We had some fundamental disagreements that (not to shift any blame from myself) he would not let go and brought up constantly. I also blame him for causing several people to... drop me as a friend. I haven't seen or heard anything about him for over two years. All I know is that he had a breakdown of some kind. 

 

Apparently, he also BS'd a lot of what he said he actually did. I'm saying this after not having talked or thought about it for 2 years, and having heard it third hand from some former posters.

 

However I don't think our little fall out was the reason the forums were closed, at least not completely. Although it might have been the last drop, Mr. Priestly often stated how much he disliked the romance forums and noted their "toxicity" several times. I think he was thinking of closing them for some time and saw our "crisis" as the last straw.

 

 

 

Well, Priestly isn't doing much these days anymore anyway. We have the forums again, and as far as I know, they aren't going anywhere (these ones are more or less not patrolled anymore anyways.) Plus, the character forums where hardly the most toxic. Overzealous perhaps, but not toxic. I still maintain his closing of the entire forum was a gross overreaction. But as you say, for a variety of reasons, he didn't like the character and romance boards. 

 

On one hand though, and as an aside, I do agree with him somewhat: BW is making the games more romance specific, and, knowledge of BW's LGBTQ following aside (they're probably the single biggest '******-hag's, and I mean no disrespect with the term, in the video game industry), I think they're starting to focus too much on getting the SJW cred. David Gaider sounded a lot like your average tumblr SJW in many of his quotes. It's clear that BW definitely feels that some groups are more equal than others.

 

I think this debate brings a very interesting question on writing a character. One might see Miranda's statement as character progression, others might say it's character inconsistency. It's a very blurry line. I guess the best way to remain in the progression category, a writer should lay the ground works. Then again, can you do character progression by surprising the audience?

 

 

It can be both. I can see where it was character progression, but I can also see where it was a ****** poor attempt at it. They didn't do very well to display it or show it.

[CrutchCricket]

Thinking back on old members and the old days I actually just PM'd a few of them. We'll see if they choose to drop in.

 

Otherwise I have a humble request. Let's please not use the word "toxic" in this context. I'm actually pretty chill about most topics these days. But this still gets my blood boiling.

[Lawrence0294]

Well anyway, it is what it is =p

 

I really hope others like Ieldra, Hot heart and Jtav to name a few will come back, it'd be really nice.

 

and let's post more pictures yes, there are never enough:

 

[Ieldra]

Regarding Miranda at the Collector base:

 

The point I was originally trying to make is that rejecting a resource that can give you critical information about your enemy in a war for survival for mere sentimentality [as opposed to other, more rational reasons which may or may not apply] is stupid. You can't afford to do that, and I would expect someone with Miranda's experience to know that and react accordingly. The line in question comes across as risking the life of galactic civilization for one person's sentimentality, similar to Shepard refusing to make a choice at the end of ME3, only not quite as drastic.

 

It's basically the same point I was making about Hawke and blood magic in DAI: rejecting it with the inane platitude "Nothing good will come of it [implied: because it's evil]" is stupid.

 

The reason why I'm so allergic to these things is that it feeds the "stupid good" stereotype, the impression that you can afford to be stupid if only it's good and get away with it with no negative consequences, just because it's (the immediate) good, or the stereotype "heroes have hearts, villains have minds" embodied by Shepard and TIM, respectively, with Miranda's sentimentality indicating she's turned. it's a common conceit of mainstream storytelling, but that doesn't make it any less delusional. As opposed to that, I would argue that winning the war is the highest possible good in this case, since the alternative is the death of galactic civilization, and anything that helps has to be considered with cold reason rather than sentimentality, similar to how the US's generals sent inexperienced troops into battle early in WWII in order to harden them, knowing that at least initially, casualties would be extremely high. The limits of the acceptable are different from everyday life if you're in a war for survival, and Miranda rejecting that fact came across to me as an extremely undesirable  direction of character development.

 

BTW:

Odd how discussion resumed in here. It's actually rather relaxing to debate these things with some distance from the story. Nothing can happpen anymore, all is in the past, so nobody has any stake in the outcome. Since Mac Walters is still writing, I don't expect the next ME to be any less simplistic in its storytelling, but I don't expect it to be interesting for me personally anyway. 

[Mister J]

I just pretend that Shepard and Miranda refuse to capture the Collector base because of Legions warning: taking the enemies tech means you develop along the paths they desire. The sentimental reasons are just there in case Shepard didn't talk to Legion.

[God]

Not to go off on a tangent about US military strategy during the Second World War, but we had nothing but inexperienced forces to put on the ground. Most of our existing forces were caught off guard in the islands of the Pacific, with a modicum of stateside defenses. We also waited at least 5 months before stepping into organized ground combat (a bit longer with our moves in Guadalcanal in August of 1942), and nearly an entire year before actually deploying with Operation Torch into North Africa.

 

A better metaphor would be in a smaller scale, like the Battle of Midway. We willingly sacrificed three squadrons of torpedo bombers attacking the Japanese Carriers (without escort, given the extreme fuel range the escort fighters would be operating at) while sending a wave of dive bombers to take out the Carriers after the Japanese fighters were busy refueling and rearming from slaughtering the torpedo bombers (and leaving their decks vulnerable with fuel and ammunition). 

 

That said, I will say that Miranda isn't entirely opposed to keeping the Collector Base. As I said, she doesn't hold it to be something inviolable and irreconcilable with her view, but something she is uncomfortable with, something she is concerned about the implications of. She has some form of boundaries that she isn't comfortable crossing. And there is the practical fear of worrying whether or not the Collector Base can be controlled without the extremely heavy risk of indoctrination. There's a lot of Reaper tech lying around, and it's going to take a lot of people to clear the base, which means that there's a potentially tremendous risk of security breaches from indoctrination.

[Ieldra]

That said, I will say that Miranda isn't entirely opposed to keeping the Collector Base. As I said, she doesn't hold it to be something inviolable and irreconcilable with her view, but something she is uncomfortable with, something she is concerned about the implications of. She has some form of boundaries that she isn't comfortable crossing. And there is the practical fear of worrying whether or not the Collector Base can be controlled without the extremely heavy risk of indoctrination. There's a lot of Reaper tech lying around, and it's going to take a lot of people to clear the base, which means that there's a potentially tremendous risk of security breaches from indoctrination.

She doesn't say that though. I don't think anyone can be "comfortable" about keeping the base. It's a thoroughly unsettling place and what happened there will inevitably affect people emotionally, to say nothing about the everpresent danger of indoctration. "Be careful to the point of paranoia" appears to be a good rule when dealing with these things. The question is how you react to the proposal to keep it: "Maybe if it feels bad, it's a bad idea" (DAI's Inquisitor to Leliana in one of the upper options) or "It feels bad, but can we afford to reject it?" I think regardless of your ultimate decision, the latter is the only intelligent response.

[wright1978]

Regarding Miranda at the Collector base:

 

The point I was originally trying to make is that rejecting a resource that can give you critical information about your enemy in a war for survival for mere sentimentality [as opposed to other, more rational reasons which may or may not apply] is stupid. You can't afford to do that, and I would expect someone with Miranda's experience to know that and react accordingly. The line in question comes across as risking the life of galactic civilization for one person's sentimentality, similar to Shepard refusing to make a choice at the end of ME3, only not quite as drastic.

 

It's basically the same point I was making about Hawke and blood magic in DAI: rejecting it with the inane platitude "Nothing good will come of it [implied: because it's evil]" is stupid.

 

The reason why I'm so allergic to these things is that it feeds the "stupid good" stereotype, the impression that you can afford to be stupid if only it's good and get away with it with no negative consequences, just because it's (the immediate) good, or the stereotype "heroes have hearts, villains have minds" embodied by Shepard and TIM, respectively, with Miranda's sentimentality indicating she's turned. it's a common conceit of mainstream storytelling, but that doesn't make it any less delusional. As opposed to that, I would argue that winning the war is the highest possible good in this case, since the alternative is the death of galactic civilization, and anything that helps has to be considered with cold reason rather than sentimentality, similar to how the US's generals sent inexperienced troops into battle early in WWII in order to harden them, knowing that at least initially, casualties would be extremely high. The limits of the acceptable are different from everyday life if you're in a war for survival, and Miranda rejecting that fact came across to me as an extremely undesirable  direction of character development.

 

BTW:

Odd how discussion resumed in here. It's actually rather relaxing to debate these things with some distance from the story. Nothing can happpen anymore, all is in the past, so nobody has any stake in the outcome. Since Mac Walters is still writing, I don't expect the next ME to be any less simplistic in its storytelling, but I don't expect it to be interesting for me personally anyway. 

Agree completely regarding Collector base decision. There are reasons to destroy it just as there are reasons for refusal in ME3 but not sentimentality i would argue and it certainly shouldn't have been spewing from Miranda.

 

As to future ME games, i'm very much interested if gun shy given the ME3 debacle and Mac's presence as 'Creative Director'

[jtav]

Looking back, I think most of my objection to the CB scene was more fear of what it heralded than the scene itself. I don't think I really had any business here. I wanted a character and romance type the writers had no interest in creating. But I do want to apologize for being hostile.

[CrutchCricket]

Between the trolls, haters, later the "civil war" debacle and well... Skullheart, I don't think you were particularly hostile. You just seemed to run your fiction in the vein of the Aperture Science Enrichment Center

 

Which now that I'm dealing with more fanfiction I'm coming to realize is not the worst thing you can do.

[God]

Skullheart? Where's he at?

[Lawrence0294]

Regarding Miranda at the Collector base:

 

The point I was originally trying to make is that rejecting a resource that can give you critical information about your enemy in a war for survival for mere sentimentality [as opposed to other, more rational reasons which may or may not apply] is stupid. You can't afford to do that, and I would expect someone with Miranda's experience to know that and react accordingly. The line in question comes across as risking the life of galactic civilization for one person's sentimentality, similar to Shepard refusing to make a choice at the end of ME3, only not quite as drastic.

 

It's basically the same point I was making about Hawke and blood magic in DAI: rejecting it with the inane platitude "Nothing good will come of it [implied: because it's evil]" is stupid.

 

The reason why I'm so allergic to these things is that it feeds the "stupid good" stereotype, the impression that you can afford to be stupid if only it's good and get away with it with no negative consequences, just because it's (the immediate) good, or the stereotype "heroes have hearts, villains have minds" embodied by Shepard and TIM, respectively, with Miranda's sentimentality indicating she's turned. it's a common conceit of mainstream storytelling, but that doesn't make it any less delusional. As opposed to that, I would argue that winning the war is the highest possible good in this case, since the alternative is the death of galactic civilization, and anything that helps has to be considered with cold reason rather than sentimentality, similar to how the US's generals sent inexperienced troops into battle early in WWII in order to harden them, knowing that at least initially, casualties would be extremely high. The limits of the acceptable are different from everyday life if you're in a war for survival, and Miranda rejecting that fact came across to me as an extremely undesirable  direction of character development.

I think that makes great sense. I think they tried to add to the sensitive side to Miranda, which itself is great of course, but they simply didn't do a good job at that. But then again...could we argue that adding this flawed logic to Miranda helps to humanize her ? Emotions can't be controlled and are often irrational. Miranda is set as a brilliant women, and most probably understands how important tech from the CB might save their ass from the reapers, yet cannot use technology that was used to commit such atrocities. Does it make sense ? No, like you said, it's not a smart reasoning at all, yet Miranda is so touched by all this...she just can't.

 

 

 

 

BTW:

Odd how discussion resumed in here. It's actually rather relaxing to debate these things with some distance from the story. Nothing can happpen anymore, all is in the past, so nobody has any stake in the outcome. Since Mac Walters is still writing, I don't expect the next ME to be any less simplistic in its storytelling, but I don't expect it to be interesting for me personally anyway. 

I know right ? 

Super Mac isn't writing actually, as far as I know, he is a creative director. Whether that's best or worse...I'm really not sure. Mac was very much decent at writing characters, where he miserably failed was in writing overarching plots. Does being a creative director give him even more power in telling how will the story go,,,I really don't know.

[CrutchCricket]

Goddamn tablet ate my previous reply so I'll retype I guess...

 

Skullheart? Where's he at?

No idea, he didn't come over on the new forums.

 

There was no natural change or character development just look at the beginning of ME2

 

where she is a bit "bitchy" and more hostile and then suddenly on the ship she is your best friend?

Almost seemed like she was written by two different people

 

Still the best female character and LI though! just a lot of wasted potential (especially in ME3)

 

Disagree, there is an explanation for that. Miranda doesn't trust you yet and she's not impressed with your reputation. So at best you're a waste of time, at worst you're a liability if you decide to turn on Cerberus and cause damage. She also just lost a station and countless loyal and useful Cerberus personnel to a traitor she maybe should've seen coming. So it's not the best day for her. After Freedom's Progress however, she's seen you in action and you've demonstrated you'll play ball. Plus she's been placed under you and she's a professional so she's a lot more civil. As things progress you start to intrigue her, first as a potential recruit (remember she talks to you about joining Cerberus and what it stands for, in her view anyway) and later in a more personal capacity, leading up to the romance if you so choose.

 

From an RL perspective she may have been written that way to subvert player expectations. If you're a male gamer chances are you see her and instantly want to hit that (I know I did) but this isn't a woman who insta-worships you (like some other LIs we could talk about). I think they underestimated the effect this would have on players but that's another discussion. It also subverts the femme fatale vibe you get. While her character was undoubtedly designed that way, it grew out of that. She looks like she'll seduce you but she entices you with reason instead. Of course when it is time to romance her, DAT ASS comes into play. Bioware never was subtle...

[o Ventus]

Still watch it now and then. Of course i ignore the terrible last season and imagine it didn't happen.

 

Like Dexter, and how they totally ruined it in the end and made Hannah into an idiot.

 

I can't fathom why showrunners and producers feel the need to jump the shark at the end and make the finales to good shows totally stupid.