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[o Ventus]

Especially after Season 7 which was very good 

S8 was mostly just bad and Hannah's character (one of my favourites from the previous season) was ruined

 

Dexter was ruined right at the end of season 7, when Hannah poisoned Debra, and it continued on to the final credits on the final episode.

[Lawrence0294]

I see what you mean 

I still think we should have had a few more conversations to space out the change in personality

 

Same with her resigning from Cerberus if you pick destory the collector base

Maybe even a conversation towards the end where she begins to have doubts about Cerberus ? 

 

And as much as I liked DAT ASS they went really overboard with it (especially in ME3)

Still pissed about her limited role in ME3 where we just got a rehash of her loyalty mission

Though I think Crutch indeed has a point, I'll agree with you John. I think one conversation to transition through her coldness to her more open behavior would've been very nice. Just as it would have been great to get one more conversation regarding her doubts on the Illusive man. I think each character should've had a conversation reacting to the abandoned Collector ship mission and that would've been a great place to have Miranda show small cracks in her trust in the Illusive man.

 

I hate with a biblical passion the "dat ass" shots. They are useless and show sever bad taste. One of the traits of Miranda's character is how she is objectified by others (which Miranda indeed exploits), but objectifying the character to the audience, I find that counter productive and plain idiotic. If there were a mod to remove them, I would gladly use it.

[o Ventus]

 

I hate with a biblical passion the "dat ass" shots. They are useless and show sever bad taste. One of the traits of Miranda's character is how she is objectified by others (which Miranda indeed exploits), but objectifying the character to the audience, I find that counter productive and plain idiotic. If there were a mod to remove them, I would gladly use it.

 

Christ, yes. The actual cinematic framing of the ass shots is so stupid and inane. Contrasted with her actual character, it's almost like the cinematic director was thinking "what's a good way to show that Miranda, while objectified by people, isn't uncomfortable with her body or afraid to use it to her advantage?" without realizing that those same shots fall into the same cliches that he's trying to subvert. Your average audience member isn't going to catch on to the context of the frame (and it's a pretty shoddy context to begin with).

 

It's made even worse when someone criticizes Miranda and uses "lol the camera looks at her bum" as a point for her being a (supposedly) bad character.

[MisterJB]

Speaking of Miranda taking advantage of her looks, I really wish her romance had a component of suspicion where Shepard wonders if she isn't seducing him for purposes of maintaining his loyalty.

Then, it came down to a question of whether or not you trusted her enough. And, unlike Niket who was found wanting, Shepard can choose to trust her.

[Lawrence0294]

Speaking of Miranda taking advantage of her looks, I really wish her romance had a component of suspicion where Shepard wonders if she isn't seducing him for purposes of maintaining his loyalty.

Then, it came down to a question of whether or not you trusted her enough. And, unlike Niket who was found wanting, Shepard can choose to trust her.

Agreed. Although it is a trope that's often used, the beautiful women who is supposed to seduce the man to assure his loyalty, until she falls in love with him, it would've fit quite nicely here, especially if it wasn't even her actual goal.

It got me wondering, how would you have reacted if Bioware had taken the path where Miranda sides with Cerberus and she becomes a rival in ME3, having to fight your romance.

Quite similarly to Bastila in The Old Republic, I think it would've been satisfying to truly win her over and turn her over Cerberus, especially in a romance.

[o Ventus]

 

It got me wondering, how would you have reacted if Bioware had taken the path where Miranda sides with Cerberus and she becomes a rival in ME3, having to fight your romance.

Tbh, I'd have sold my game right then and there. There's no feasible way they could have written Miranda into agreeing with Cerberus in ME3, outside something contrived like mind control. That would have pi**ed me off more than the ending.

[Lawrence0294]

Tbh, I'd have sold my game right then and there. There's no feasible way they could have written Miranda into agreeing with Cerberus in ME3, outside something contrived like mind control. That would have pi**ed me off more than the ending.

Well...mind control stories are almost always awful.

And yes, I think this scenario would only really work and be interesting if Cerberus itself was different from the one in ME3 and be more in line with the one in ME2.

[o Ventus]

Well...mind control stories are almost always awful.

And yes, I think this scenario would only really work and be interesting if Cerberus itself was different from the one in ME3 and be more in line with the one in ME2.

 

Even if Cerberus hadn't turned into the Galactic Empire, it's entirely possible for Miranda to quit them in ME2. They wouldn't be able to write a convincing plot to put her back with them if they tried.

[CrutchCricket]

Maybe even a conversation towards the end where she begins to have doubts about Cerberus ?

That's implied (or at least easy to infer) after the Collector ship. It's been three years since I could provide direct quotes but when you call out TIM for playing fast and loose with your life her defense is anything but convincing, especially to herself. Would an explicit expression help? Possibly. But only a line or two. I don't think a whole conversation is required. And "or what, you'll replace me too" tells us everything we need to know.

 

Speaking of Miranda taking advantage of her looks, I really wish her romance had a component of suspicion where Shepard wonders if she isn't seducing him for purposes of maintaining his loyalty.

Then, it came down to a question of whether or not you trusted her enough. And, unlike Niket who was found wanting, Shepard can choose to trust her.

Wouldn't that just play back into the femme fatale tropes which we're happy are avoided? Unless that's only a misconception on Shepard's side and he has to atone for it later. Eh... maybe. But it has too much potential to turn into a "wacky misunderstanding" situation which can quickly get annoying in a romance situation.

 

It got me wondering, how would you have reacted if Bioware had taken the path where Miranda sides with Cerberus and she becomes a rival in ME3, having to fight your romance.

Quite similarly to Bastila in The Old Republic, I think it would've been satisfying to truly win her over and turn her over Cerberus, especially in a romance.

I probably would've really hated that, until the "winning over" part at least. But I can see its merits.

 

 

Otherwise you wanted some ending discussion? Here it is. Replaying the final TIM encounter a few hours ago, I forgot all renegade responses means you shoot him. I was expecting to Saren him. So I was actually surprised when I gunned him down. Anyway, having recently rewatched some X-Men movies I was reminded of the final Shaw-Magneto encounter in First Class. So after all his rambling on how control is the answer I really wanted my Shep to say: "I want you know I agree with everything you've said. The only problem is... you're indoctrinated" *boom headshot*

 

Michael Fassbender and/or Magneto would make an awesome Shepard.

[wright1978]

Agreed. Although it is a trope that's often used, the beautiful women who is supposed to seduce the man to assure his loyalty, until she falls in love with him, it would've fit quite nicely here, especially if it wasn't even her actual goal.

It got me wondering, how would you have reacted if Bioware had taken the path where Miranda sides with Cerberus and she becomes a rival in ME3, having to fight your romance.

Quite similarly to Bastila in The Old Republic, I think it would've been satisfying to truly win her over and turn her over Cerberus, especially in a romance.

 

I would have utterly hated it. Probably somewhere on par with my hatred of starbrat.

Personally i would have found such a scenario extremely unsatisfying, any scenario where she supported looney tunes Cerberus of ME3 would be character destroying & no doubt any such scenario would play out as an exorcism of the character i liked and conversion into an alliance buffoon.

[wright1978]

There was no natural change or character development just look at the beginning of ME2

 

where she is a bit "bitchy" and more hostile and then suddenly on the ship she is your best friend?

Almost seemed like she was written by two different people

 

 

I'm currently replaying the trilogy and am in the middle of ME2. There's still some frostiness on the ship initially imo. My big problem is actually more with Shep during the first conversation. There's no way not to be antagonistic towards her(Shep's actually the one who comes across as bitchy), which is a definite failing of that particular dialogue wheel.

[BassStyles]

Wait... are these subforums open again? The time stamps are showing today on posts... May god help us all.

[God]

Wait... are these subforums open again? The time stamps are showing today on posts... May god help us all.

 

They've been open for a year now. 

 

No incidents so far. It's more the people involved than anything. And, as discussed, the most problematic posters are long gone.

[BassStyles]

Haha, anybody else find the humor in my "May god help us all" and the first to reply is... God himself... You can't write this stuff!

 

Anyway, that's cool. Had no idea they opened these back up. Glad to hear it's been civil. I'll be poking my head in more often now so as to keep myself occupied whilst I wait for ME:Next information.

[CrutchCricket]

Wait... are these subforums open again? The time stamps are showing today on posts... May god help us all.

Yeah the waifu are coming for you, specifically.*

Problem?


*Phrasing?

[Lawrence0294]

 

Otherwise you wanted some ending discussion? Here it is. Replaying the final TIM encounter a few hours ago, I forgot all renegade responses means you shoot him. I was expecting to Saren him. So I was actually surprised when I gunned him down. Anyway, having recently rewatched some X-Men movies I was reminded of the final Shaw-Magneto encounter in First Class. So after all his rambling on how control is the answer I really wanted my Shep to say: "I want you know I agree with everything you've said. The only problem is... you're indoctrinated" *boom headshot*

 

Michael Fassbender and/or Magneto would make an awesome Shepard.

That of course leads to one of the biggest problems of the games, that is, the sever lack of role playing opportunities with Shepard. The massive amount of auto dialogue was just a killer. No matter what, Shepard had to be an Alliance poster boy, he had to detest Cerberus etc. The opportunity to at least accept TIM's believes would've been very interesting, especially considering all of a sudden Shepard can accept control even thought he bad mouthed the idea for 30 hours. Doesn't make much sense.

 

Wait... are these subforums open again? The time stamps are showing today on posts... May god help us all.

We have God on our side...not much Bioware can do about it =p

[CrutchCricket]

The opportunity to at least accept TIM's believes would've been very interesting, especially considering all of a sudden Shepard can accept control even thought he bad mouthed the idea for 30 hours. Doesn't make much sense.

 

We have God on our side...not much Bioware can do about it =p

Except why do I feel that if they had included the option to agree with TIM it would've meant agreeing with everything he did? Remember subtlety is not Bioware's strong suit. While I don't want to be the posterboy for the Alliance I sure as hell don't want to be it for Cerberus either. Ideally I'd tell them all to screw off, they're on my team.

 

I certainly don't agree with TIM's goals or his methods. I can however agree that the idea of control, if feasible is preferable to destroy. But up until the end I'm not all all convinced it is feasible, because we have nearly three games worth of evidence to the contrary. To its credit though, the game does let you get away with that interpretation. Just barely. So while there is no option to go "control is a good idea if it works", at least there isn't a point where saying "no, control always sucks" is inevitable and there are some options to question the claim of success at control.

 

Still you have to wonder, if "art" was on the menu, why wouldn't they try to foreshadow and support control and even synthesis? More evidence perhaps for the two-man locked room theory. I imagine quite a few jaws were agape when the RGB was tacked on clumsily nailed to to the game.

[o Ventus]

 

Still you have to wonder, if "art" was on the menu, why wouldn't they try to foreshadow and support control and even synthesis? More evidence perhaps for the two-man locked room theory. I imagine quite a few jaws were agape when the RGB was tacked on clumsily nailed to to the game.

I'm still curious as to what exactly was going at in the Bioware offices around the time ME3 was being written.

 

Walters: Okay, so Casey, get this, it turns out that the war between the geth and the quarians is foreshadowing for a larger meta plot about conflict between organics and synthetics, and so the Catalyst tells Shepard that the only way to prevent this conflict is to make the people of the galaxy understand each other.

 

Writer #1: Ehh, sir? Not to cut in, but I'm not sure that theme really works as a central tenet.

 

Walters: What? What do you mean "not sure"? What is there to not be sure about? Robots rebelling and killing their makers seems pretty clear to me.

 

Writer #1: Well, we've already written that the player is able to subvert the conflict entirely if they make the right choices, and the whole "organics vs. synthetics" thing has never really been a defining plot point of any of the previous games, or even the comics or novels. It just seems like it would be placing a lot of emphasis on something that was never a big deal in the first place, and on something that can be averted entirely, thus making it even less of an outstanding issue. Not to mention that we already wrote that other mission where Shepard goes into the geth consensus and learns that the geth don't hold grudges and that other quarians were complicit in arresting or killing quarians in the Morning War. Looking at the transcript here, it says that the Catalyst mentions the geth and quarians as a poitn to forward its argument, but it just doesn't seem like it would work.

 

Walters: .... I have no idea what any of those words meant, but I want you out of this building in the next 5 minutes. You're fired.

[Lawrence0294]

Except why do I feel that if they had included the option to agree with TIM it would've meant agreeing with everything he did? Remember subtlety is not Bioware's strong suit. While I don't want to be the posterboy for the Alliance I sure as hell don't want to be it for Cerberus either. Ideally I'd tell them all to screw off, they're on my team.

 

I certainly don't agree with TIM's goals or his methods. I can however agree that the idea of control, if feasible is preferable to destroy. But up until the end I'm not all all convinced it is feasible, because we have nearly three games worth of evidence to the contrary. To its credit though, the game does let you get away with that interpretation. Just barely. So while there is no option to go "control is a good idea if it works", at least there isn't a point where saying "no, control always sucks" is inevitable and there are some options to question the claim of success at control.

 

 

But it all leads back to the idea of choice and the ability to craft your character's personality. Bioware actually showed it is capable of that with Inquisition, where you are able to chose whether you do things in name of faith in the chantry, elven gods or nothing at all. In the case of Mass Effect, you could've had a choice of neutrality where you do things as a Specter and the Alliance is another force you're gathering next to the Turians, Asaris etc. In the case of Cerberus, if we assume they had kept the mustache twirling evil Cerby, then you can simply show resentment in what they became, disappointment in TIM's decisions yet still show interest in the idea of control.

 

 

 

Still you have to wonder, if "art" was on the menu, why wouldn't they try to foreshadow and support control and even synthesis? More evidence perhaps for the two-man locked room theory. I imagine quite a few jaws were agape when the RGB was tacked on clumsily nailed to to the game.

 

That's one of the many things that are wrong with the ending. Synthesis and control feel like they just pop out of nowhere. No foreshadowing or anything. Very amateurish.

[CrutchCricket]

Well maybe Bioware still has some competent writers left. But they seem to be in the minority.

[Ieldra]

Otherwise you wanted some ending discussion? Here it is. Replaying the final TIM encounter a few hours ago, I forgot all renegade responses means you shoot him. I was expecting to Saren him. So I was actually surprised when I gunned him down. Anyway, having recently rewatched some X-Men movies I was reminded of the final Shaw-Magneto encounter in First Class. So after all his rambling on how control is the answer I really wanted my Shep to say: "I want you know I agree with everything you've said. The only problem is... you're indoctrinated" *boom headshot*

All Renegade options don't mean you shoot him. If you choose the blue option in the last conversation node, it doesn't matter if you chose all Renegade options before that. That way the conversation comes across not so much about the (in)validity of Control but about who's going to control the Reapers. It's a rather satisfying way to do this scene.

As for Miranda and Cerberus, I don't know. Both TIM's plans and the Crucible project are as far-fetched as you can imagine as possible solutions to the Reaper war. If the price for the survival of your civilization is that the future will regard you as the world's greatest villain, would you do it? Can you afford not to? Miranda would never be as callous as TIM, but the question is: is there a price too high for survival? Is there something you would refuse to do, even if it meant the death of everything? Stories usually wriggle out of the question by contriving a solution that lets you have your cake and eat it, but IMO that cheapens the question. Sure, ME3 Miranda would never do it, but ME3 Miranda is an impostor who acts as if family was more important than the survival of galactic civilization.

[CrutchCricket]

All Renegade options don't mean you shoot him. If you choose the blue option in the last conversation node, it doesn't matter if you chose all Renegade options before that. That way the conversation comes across not so much about the (in)validity of Control but about who's going to control the Reapers. It's a rather satisfying way to do this scene.

As for Miranda and Cerberus, I don't know. Both TIM's plans and the Crucible project are as far-fetched as you can imagine as possible solutions to the Reaper war. If the price for the survival of your civilization is that the future will regard you as the world's greatest villain, would you do it? Can you afford not to? Miranda would never be as callous as TIM, but the question is: is there a price too high for survival? Is there something you would refuse to do, even if it meant the death of everything? Stories usually wriggle out of the question by contriving a solution that lets you have your cake and eat it, but IMO that cheapens the question. Sure, ME3 Miranda would never do it, but ME3 Miranda is an impostor who acts as if family was more important than the survival of galactic civilization.

Hmm. So it was just that final choice that did it. Fair enough. I picked it because it seemed to call him out on his bullshit more.

 

Otherwise, if you have two random plans of equal or near equal implausibility I'd say the one that commits less atrocities is the preferable choice, wouldn't you?

 

Beyond that, I dont know. I think I'm flipping back and forth on this, even as I type. On the one hand it's easy for us, removed from the situation to make judgement calls. It may be a different story if we and our loved ones were in the thick of it. That being said, obviously no individual or group of individuals should really outweigh the survival of entire races. I'd like to think I wouldn't shy from doing what needs to be done, in any situation. Ideally, I'd just do it and whether I'd be praised or condemned, my decisiveness and wilingness to take it would be remembered. On the other hand I am quite lazy, self-serving and would experience a great deal a fear in any crisis situation. What I can say is that I respect and am even grateful for those necessary evils we'd rather not know about that keep the world spinning.

 

But to bring it back, to family focus vs bigger picture, I don't think Mordin is off the mark with his bigger picture analogy. I don't think you can form much of an emotional connection to faceless masses. An individual that's close to you is definitely a better motivator for remember what those faceless masses represent. And to take it to a greater extreme, you remember my idea of the cosmic perspective? On the scale of the universe, any race, even all of them together is nothing. But to my more limited subjective perspective those closest to me mean everything, while the race as a whole is too vast to grasp as more than an intellectual abstract notion. So given my choice of perspectives, the aggregate concept of my species is screwed either way.

[o Ventus]

Not entirely related to Miranda, but Yvonne Strahovski guest stars in Louie, in the 2nd episode of the 4th season. I bring this up because season 4 is on Netflix now. She's great, as usual.

 

And wearing a soaking wet bikini