82198 réponses à ce sujet

[Andrew Lucas]

Ha! Brings back some "Chuck" memories...

"Okay, which one? This one, or the latter one?"

[Lawrence0294]

As for Miranda and Cerberus, I don't know. Both TIM's plans and the Crucible project are as far-fetched as you can imagine as possible solutions to the Reaper war. If the price for the survival of your civilization is that the future will regard you as the world's greatest villain, would you do it? Can you afford not to? Miranda would never be as callous as TIM, but the question is: is there a price too high for survival? Is there something you would refuse to do, even if it meant the death of everything? Stories usually wriggle out of the question by contriving a solution that lets you have your cake and eat it, but IMO that cheapens the question. Sure, ME3 Miranda would never do it, but ME3 Miranda is an impostor who acts as if family was more important than the survival of galactic civilization.

Well of course, the Crucible itself was a horrendous Deux ex machinain in my opinion so everything related to it instantly became far fetched.

To your following points, interestingly, Arrival kind of touched upon the idea. The cost of survival meant to Shepard that killing all those innocents Batarians was worth it. Sadly the moral and ethical points weren't really explored, or at least not enough.

 

@O ventus: That's great to know. I've been meaning to watch this episode. I quite enjoy Louie and...well I very much enjoy Miss Strahovski.

 

Oh...and pictures:

 

[Ieldra]

Otherwise, if you have two random plans of equal or near equal implausibility I'd say the one that commits less atrocities is the preferable choice, wouldn't you?

If both can be estimated to have a significant chance of success, certainly. The more far-fetched the solution, though, the less you can afford to leave alternatives unexplored.

Beyond that, I dont know. I think I'm flipping back and forth on this, even as I type. On the one hand it's easy for us, removed from the situation to make judgement calls. It may be a different story if we and our loved ones were in the thick of it. That being said, obviously no individual or group of individuals should really outweigh the survival of entire races. I'd like to think I wouldn't shy from doing what needs to be done, in any situation. Ideally, I'd just do it and whether I'd be praised or condemned, my decisiveness and wilingness to take it would be remembered. On the other hand I am quite lazy, self-serving and would experience a great deal a fear in any crisis situation. What I can say is that I respect and am even grateful for those necessary evils we'd rather not know about that keep the world spinning.

While I'm glad I don't have to make such decisions, I would prefer to know about those that are made. Wilful ignorance means that we can continue to live in denial, and I've always seen that as a character flaw. I can live with disagreement - after all, freedom of speech means we all have to live with being offended - but the idea of "keeping me ignorant for my own peace of mind" does not appeal to me in the slightest. I'd rather deal with the pain but have a true - or at least truer - image of the world in my mind.

But to bring it back, to family focus vs bigger picture, I don't think Mordin is off the mark with his bigger picture analogy. I don't think you can form much of an emotional connection to faceless masses. An individual that's close to you is definitely a better motivator for remember what those faceless masses represent. And to take it to a greater extreme, you remember my idea of the cosmic perspective? On the scale of the universe, any race, even all of them together is nothing. But to my more limited subjective perspective those closest to me mean everything, while the race as a whole is too vast to grasp as more than an intellectual abstract notion. So given my choice of perspectives, the aggregate concept of my species is screwed either way.

I agree that you tend to care more about things if you have a personal stake. However, the best response is often not to focus on those close to you, because ignoring the bigger picture means that they die. As someone in a book I read some time ago put it, "if we lose this war, it doesn't just mean that millions die. It means that you die, I die, those you love die, your children die etc.." So it behooves you, if you can contribute to the ultimate victory more than others can - as Miranda can with her extensive knowledge of Cerberus - that you do so, even if your goal is to save the world so those you love can live in it. Yet again, the story attempts to wriggle out of this dilemma by the significance of the events at Sanctuary, but it was all accidental, and that means the writers' decision to make Miranda focus exclusively on family still reflects back on her character.

[BassStyles]

Lawrence... I've had that image as my phone background for well over three years now haha.

[o Ventus]

This is my phone background:

 

 

My favorite piece of Miranda art, and it looks glorious on an iPhone 6 Plus's huge screen, since it's native 1920x1080.

[Andrew Lucas]

So glorious that it crashed my phone's browser not once but twice.

Seriously, I love those azure eyes :3

[Lawrence0294]

[Andrew Lucas]

^^ Should have been the last scene prior Earth in ME3.


But nooo....

*sighs*

[o Ventus]

 

The Citadel DLC is still the best bit of ME content released so far, and one of my favorite gaming experiences ever.

 

 

Tbh, I'd watch a Mass Effect: the Animated Series.

 

 

Removed one because it was a little too NSFW, and I didn't notice the dirty bits when I copied it, here's the replacement:

 

 

Barring the odd feet geometry, I actually kind of like this one better than the one I had in its place earlier.

 

 

I changed my mind, here's the picture I deleted earlier as an added bonus. I cropped the explicit bits out of view, so it shouldn't be NSFW anymore (as NSFW?). Jack always calls Miranda "the cheerleader", so Miranda decided to put that nickname to good use. And by that I mean she got some sexy role-play clothes for when she and Shepard have their fun time

[CrutchCricket]

While I'm glad I don't have to make such decisions, I would prefer to know about those that are made. Wilful ignorance means that we can continue to live in denial, and I've always seen that as a character flaw. I can live with disagreement - after all, freedom of speech means we all have to live with being offended - but the idea of "keeping me ignorant for my own peace of mind" does not appeal to me in the slightest. I'd rather deal with the pain but have a true - or at least truer - image of the world in my mind.

Interesting how we each took a different part of that idea to emphasize. You chose to comment on being willfully ignorant of necessary evils while I was referring more to the evils themselves. I made that statement because our discussion was reminding me of another I had in a random thread on the story section where I ended up referencing shadowy gmen who don't exist planning drastic actions that never see the light of day in closed-door meeting that never happen. The exact topic doesn't matter but I remember saying what I said now- that I was glad those people exist in some form, even if I don't care to know the details. Because while I may not know them, I know myself. And I know that I'm 100% dependent on the system they keep from crashing. Without it, I'd have likely been dead long ago. So they can just keep on doing their thing.
 
As to the willful ignorance, I might ask, what's the use in knowing certain things? Objectively, more knowledge is always better than less of course. Overall more knowledge should always be sought. But in terms of individuals like us living out our everyday lives, how would knowing stuff like this improve our lives? I don't think it's denial, necessarily. If you start with the premise that there are necessary evils and men who commit them and you approve of this because of the inferred benefits, do the details add anything? I don't think they do. Now there do need to be people who do know the details and who can ensure it doesn't go too far (whatever that might mean). But individuals, civilians? Not so much. People need to know, but not individuals. How we work out this seeming paradox may vary.
 

I agree that you tend to care more about things if you have a personal stake. However, the best response is often not to focus on those close to you, because ignoring the bigger picture means that they die. As someone in a book I read some time ago put it, "if we lose this war, it doesn't just mean that millions die. It means that you die, I die, those you love die, your children die etc.." So it behooves you, if you can contribute to the ultimate victory more than others can - as Miranda can with her extensive knowledge of Cerberus - that you do so, even if your goal is to save the world so those you love can live in it. Yet again, the story attempts to wriggle out of this dilemma by the significance of the events at Sanctuary, but it was all accidental, and that means the writers' decision to make Miranda focus exclusively on family still reflects back on her character.

I guess the counter to that would be immediacy and proximity. If an immediate close threat is threatening your loved ones that response gets turned around: "If you die, the war's not worth winning". In Miranda's example, if Oriana dies or loses herself in her father's brainwashing, what's the point for the rest of it? What's left worth saving? Yes, humanity, the galaxy and all that. But humanity and the galaxy don't love you, they don't send you birthday cards or laugh at your jokes even if they're terrible. They're of small comfort when you're sad, or lonely.

 

Obviously that doesn't stop many people from dedicating their efforts, or even their lives to them. And given the Miranda we first met, she'd certainly be among those that do dedicate themselves to a higher cause. But I think when it really comes down to it the emotional connection of a loved one in peril has a higher chance of trumping rational considerations of the bigger picture.

 

I think it can work the other way too. What's that famous Stalin quote: "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic"? What would be more difficult, pushing a button you're told kills ten faceless people you've never met and will never see, or pulling the trigger on just one, looking you in the eye and pleading for his life? We're wired to form personal connections. We instinctively seek to survive or ensure the survival of our family. I don't think there's an instinct for preventing extinction though.

[CrutchCricket]

This is my phone background:

lol, sorry gents but Kasumi stole my phone:

Lock screen for two years and counting.

[o Ventus]

 

I think it can work the other way too. What's that famous Stalin quote: "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic"? What would be more difficult, pushing a button you're told kills ten faceless people you've never met and will never see, or pulling the trigger on just one, looking you in the eye and pleading for his life? We're wired to form personal connections. We instinctively seek to survive or ensure the survival of our family. I don't think there's an instinct for preventing extinction though.

 

This. I actually don't mind the family angle so much in 3 as much as I used to. Assuming there's no romance, Oriana is the only person Miranda has close to her. It makes perfect sense that, while she does want to bring down Cerberus and the Reapers at large, she'd give special credence to her sister. Of course, if you romance her then she values Shepard's safety as well, but that's not really mentioned in-game.

 

I like the idea more than the execution though. The way they went through with it is terrible and stupid.

[wright1978]

Still utterly hate the family angle rehash in me3. I want her focused on Cerberus and TIM betrayal of everything she'd spent her entire adult life believing Cerberus stood for.

[CrutchCricket]

The family angle makes sense but it's terrible on its own. I've argued for "drop everything and help your loved one" not being completely oblivious to circumstances around you, especially when some of them are still personal.

 

TIM's actions are definitely a betrayal (the only question being how long has he been betraying her for). I wouldn't object if she took it personally. But to have nothing... there is no excuse that would cover that.

 

I would even accept an explicit either/or. Miranda is about to strike at Cerberus when she hears about Oriana. A dilemma presents itself. Confront and take down her betrayer, set right what went wrong, or save the (potentially) only person in the galaxy she truly loves. She chooses the latter.

 

It'd ****** some people in here off. But I'd buy that. I'd even support it to some extent. This is where the "she is still human" crowd would rightly get their justification. But the choice would have to be there and Miranda should have to say something about it.

 

What we have (or rather don't)... makes no sense.

[Lawrence0294]

A very cool art of Miranda in the style of the tarot cards from Dragon Age Inquisition:

 

[o Ventus]

Speaking of Dragon Age and Mass Effect, I really like the Dragon Effect crossover (even if the name is kind of dumb).

 

 

Shale-EDI and DA-Tali look great, and Morrigan-Miranda is good too.

 

Also this:

 

 

Cassandra would make a great N7.

 

If I could import DA characters into ME and make a dream squad, it would consist of Shepard, the Inquisitor, Miranda, and Cassandra. the Big Damn Heroes and their hardass Action Girl romances.

[God]

What would be more difficult, pushing a button you're told kills ten faceless people you've never met and will never see, or pulling the trigger on just one, looking you in the eye and pleading for his life? We're wired to form personal connections. We instinctively seek to survive or ensure the survival of our family. I don't think there's an instinct for preventing extinction though.

 

For me, because, well, you've referenced me enough in there, I'd kill the one guy. I don't know about you, but I really don't have a problem with that scenario. 

 

I see your point, I'm just responding to your scenario. 

 

That said, there's more of an altruistic (in the evolutionary sense) idea of wanting to see the survival of progeny and important relatives. Animals do it. We've done it for as long as we've existed. In the terms of intellectually expanding that sensibility beyond to entail humanity as a whole isn't much of a stretch. Look at people who have a messiah complex, the need to save the world.

 

I'm not saying that Miranda has that per se, but I'm saying that what you're saying isn't necessarily true all the time.

[CrutchCricket]

For me, because, well, you've referenced me enough in there, I'd kill the one guy. I don't know about you, but I really don't have a problem with that scenario. 
 
I see your point, I'm just responding to your scenario. 
 
That said, there's more of an altruistic (in the evolutionary sense) idea of wanting to see the survival of progeny and important relatives. Animals do it. We've done it for as long as we've existed. In the terms of intellectually expanding that sensibility beyond to entail humanity as a whole isn't much of a stretch. Look at people who have a messiah complex, the need to save the world.
 
I'm not saying that Miranda has that per se, but I'm saying that what you're saying isn't necessarily true all the time.

I didn't really reference you, just a discussion you may or may not have been a part of. Though now that we are talking about you, I'd have expected you to say they are equally easy, with only the outcome or benefit informing your choice.

And it's not a stretch intellectually, but it's only intellectually that that idea stretches. There is no instinctual or emotional equivalent. The latter may be debatable but even so it wouldn't compare in scale to the emotional attachment of family. Not saying that excludes pure intellectual pursuits like the preservation and betterment of a whole race, since clearly people do it in fiction and real life all the time. Just saying emotional reactions backed by instinct are typically far stronger than pure intellectual ones.

[Skullheart]

Hey there, just passing by...

 

And dropping this.

[Lawrence0294]

Oh mate...that's really fantastic !

 

What a way to make an entrance =p

[o Ventus]

I adore the clothes, but I'm not so sure about the hair. I think her regular hair would actually be a perfect fit.

[Lawrence0294]

I adore the clothes, but I'm not so sure about the hair. I think her regular hair would actually be a perfect fit.

The hair is actually one of my favourite aspect. It's very stylish and is a nice change.

[o Ventus]

The hair is actually one of my favourite aspect. It's very stylish and is a nice change.

 

I've never really been one for buns, so that's why I dislike it.

 

For her particular clothing set up here, I think her normal hair would be perfect, though something else would go good. I do like the strands flowing from either side, but the bun kills it for me.

[CrutchCricket]

The hair is formal-ish and very much matches the dress, particularly the style of it. I'm not crazy about buns either but the looser style and the bangs certainly soften up to quite a pleasing image. Especially with that cosmic background- it's like this was made for me.

 

While I like Miranda's normal hair just fine, changes like this are a welcome sight. At least the artists of the internet can show us Miranda as a more dynamic person, as opposed to just a recycled NPC, even if only visually.

 

And I can but echo the previous sentiments- welcome back Skullheart! You've definitely come with a worthy offering to rejoin the Miranda thread!

[o Ventus]

I've decided to get back into the fiction business, and I've drafted up the first chapter to a short story I'm writing. Having played through the Citadel DLC again, I've decided to put my own spin on it. The basic premise (CloneShep tries to kill RealShep and hires a gang of mercenaries to help him) is largely the same (though I don't think I'll add in Brooks, I never really liked her), but the way the plot unfolds will be different than in the DLC. The tone will also be different, as I intend my story to be much more grim and dark than the relatively light and comedic tone of the DLC. I also intend to make the clone a better "evil" villain than he was portrayed in the DLC. A real bastard. I can send it via PM if anyone's interested in taking a look and helping to give feedback.