I just realized that of my 3-4 playthroughs, Miranda is the LI of the Shepard with the perfect run. Saved everyone on SM, cured Genophage, peace between Geth-Quarians, all ME2 squadmates surviving in 3.
I don't know if it's because the (not so) subtle hints about perfection that she keeps throwing around in the 2nd game.
P.S.: Saved Ashley on Virmire though. Let her join Hackett.
That "not anymore", starring down on Wilson's dead body was the moment I fell in love with her. I just love dry dark humor like that
Double date with Tali and Garrus. Tali makes every watch Fleet and Flotilla.
Tali is REALLY into it, Garrus tries to be for the sake of his girlfriend and Miranda and Shepard spend the whole movie making fun of it and laughing at each other's jokes.
Double date with Tali and Garrus. Tali makes every watch Fleet and Flotilla.
Tali is REALLY into it, Garrus tries to be for the sake of his girlfriend and Miranda and Shepard spend the whole movie making fun of it and laughing at each other's jokes.
I like to imagine my Shepard as someone who would do well on MST3K. Mostly because I already do the same thing.
I don't think I'll ever quite get over the fact Miranda isn't a squadmate in ME3.
I'm happy leaving my Shep and Miranda, my headcanon of their actions post game would never be replicated and if they did return to MW no doubt it would be canonised that she died. So please Bioware stay in Andromeda.
I really dislike ME3 not just for what it tried to do to Miranda, ME2 now there's a game i'd take with me to a desert island to replay.
I wonder how many of us have written their own ME3 epilogue. I know I have. ME3 set out to ruin the two characters in the ME universe who were most important to me: Miranda and Shepard. That had to be corrected.
As for Miranda being on the team in ME3, that she wasn't had potential. They could've written a epic side-plot for her because she wasn't bound to be at Shepard's side all the time. No better way to establish them as being on a similar level. What we got, though..... where the heck is that picture of the puking elephant when I need it.
I wonder how many of us have written their own ME3 epilogue. I know I have. ME3 set out to ruin the two characters in the ME universe who were most important to me: Miranda and Shepard. That had to be corrected.
As for Miranda being on the team in ME3, that she wasn't had potential. They could've written a epic side-plot for her because she wasn't bound to be at Shepard's side all the time. No better way to establish them as being on a similar level. What we got, though..... where the heck is that picture of the puking elephant when I need it.
I took you as someone who liked the endings ...
I wonder how many of us have written their own ME3 epilogue. I know I have. ME3 set out to ruin the two characters in the ME universe who were most important to me: Miranda and Shepard. That had to be corrected.
As for Miranda being on the team in ME3, that she wasn't had potential. They could've written a epic side-plot for her because she wasn't bound to be at Shepard's side all the time. No better way to establish them as being on a similar level. What we got, though..... where the heck is that picture of the puking elephant when I need it.
Yeah i've never understood those who argue they want a complelte spelling out of the rest of the lives of characters. I'll take my own personalised imagination over that any day especially when i've invested so much time into the character of Shep and the future he and Miranda will carve.
There was potential both ways. I'd have still loved her as a squadmate almost in a role reversal with Jack, now the distrusted renegade Cerberus operative aboard a crew of straight laced Alliance types. In a game where roleplaying anti-alliance had of been possible i think she would have been a fantastic element.
As you say outside there was still potential. Sadly that potential wasn't used despite there being the odd nice moment, instead the emotional angle was repeated because they wanted to create an emotional response from her death from players who previously hadn't been fond of her. Cerberus as issue or an ideaology is dropped like a hot potato because it doesn't fit the role they wanted her to play or the simplistic view of Cerberus they wanted to portray. Without the leak the cerberus renegades shadow broker entry likely wouldn't even have existed.
I took you as someone who liked the endings ...
The problem of what was done with Miranda is different from the endings - with which I have a love/hate relationship. The EC did a lot to make them acceptable, and I like most of the ideas behind them, but the implementation could hardly have been worse. I can work with them, but it took a great deal of work.
I don't think ME3 ruined Miri and Shep, at least not mine, I actually like him more on 3 because he feels more human than ever. As for Miranda, have the game not been rushed to death, things could have been different, this is something I can never get over when it comes to the last game, the endings are fine IMO, but Miri's treatment... at least we got Citadel which opened new layers to the romance - I loved it, until the farewell, after that, both me and Shep felt lonely once again, it's just a... I don't know how to explain, I feel a hole on my stomach, thank god for headcanon and all those wonderful fics, or else ME3 would be hard to finish with all that negative vibes from the war and everything.
More than six years and I still am attached to her character, that shows how awesome Bioware can be, and how bad their mistakes can also be.
Well, guess I'm back for a while...
I wonder how many of us have written their own ME
3 epilogue.expanded universe.
Yo. I've told you a bit about it. It'll probably never get written in its entirety but it's up in the old noggin.
I don't think ME3 ruined Miri and Shep, at least not mine, I actually like him more on 3 because he feels more human than ever.
What if we don't want Shep to be more human (in that way)?
Well, guess I'm back for a while...
Yo. I've told you a bit about it. It'll probably never get written in its entirety but it's up in the old noggin.
What if we don't want Shep to be more human (in that way)?
Shepard is supposed to be, if Bioware fails at that, he/she won't be a compelling character, and that's a flaw.
Who Shepard is supposed to be should be our choice, not Bioware's. For me, the high moment of Shepard as a person was in the suicide mission in ME2. Few words were exchanged, but on the Normandy before it crashed, there was a visible rapport between Shepard and Miranda, expressed by just a few moments of eye contact. That was way more meaningful to me than the more openly emotional Shepard in ME3. In addition to that, Bioware's way of expressing "being more human" apparently meant getting all emotional and throwing their brains out the airlock. I'm rather sure that CrutchCricket meant that part when he said "not more human in that way". My more emotionally detached Shepard is a human as anyone else. Being openly emotional is not intrinsically a virtue.
Who Shepard is supposed to be should be our choice, not Bioware's. For me, the high moment of Shepard as a person was in the suicide mission in ME2. Few words were exchanged, but on the Normandy before it crashed, there was a visible rapport between Shepard and Miranda, expressed by just a few moments of eye contact. That was way more meaningful to me than the more openly emotional Shepard in ME3. In addition to that, Bioware's way of expressing "being more human" apparently meant getting all emotional and throwing their brains out the airlock. I'm rather sure that CrutchCricket meant that part when he said "not more human in that way". My more emotionally detached Shepard is a human as anyone else. Being openly emotional is not intrinsically a virtue.
Exactly couldn't stand the awful defined version of the character that conflicted with the prior choices available. ME3 definitely tried to hole my Shep beneath the waterline & the fact i got him and his Miranda through to my headcanon epilogue was more a case of my stubborness and determination rather than anything else.
Really hope they don't repeat that mistake.
Who Shepard is supposed to be should be our choice, not Bioware's. For me, the high moment of Shepard as a person was in the suicide mission in ME2. Few words were exchanged, but on the Normandy before it crashed, there was a visible rapport between Shepard and Miranda, expressed by just a few moments of eye contact. That was way more meaningful to me than the more openly emotional Shepard in ME3. In addition to that, Bioware's way of expressing "being more human" apparently meant getting all emotional and throwing their brains out the airlock. I'm rather sure that CrutchCricket meant that part when he said "not more human in that way". My more emotionally detached Shepard is a human as anyone else. Being openly emotional is not intrinsically a virtue.
I had that choice, ME3's Shepard totally fitted how I always played him. Unlike ME1 where Shepard was basically another Inquisitor, and ME2 where he/she began to gain personality, ME3 only went deeper on that, now - if you wanted a robot and brain-dead Shepard, then you probably have a point, despite the trilogy never really allowing such thing in-game. Even ME1/ME2 forced Shepard to do things that go against the whole carefree Shepard you are talking about.
I had that choice, ME3's Shepard totally fitted how I always played him. Unlike ME1 where Shepard was basically another Inquisitor, and ME2 where he/she began to gain personality, ME3 only went deeper on that, now - if you wanted a robot and brain-dead Shepard, then you probably have a point, despite the trilogy never really allowing such thing in-game. Even ME1/ME2
forced Shepard to do things that go against the whole carefree Shepard you are talking about.
I'm just a bit peeved that I always (tried to) play a bit of a Paragade Shepard that isn't afraid to jump headfirst into a battle and get his hands dirty, but in ME3 they turned him into a whiny crybaby. Especially when there's a dialogue choice, but all of the options say the same thing just in a different tone, like after the Thessia mission in ME3, when you talk to Joker and he makes a joke, prompting Shepard to get p**sed off and snap at him. Either dialogue option you choose, Shepard's reaction is the same.
- if you wanted a robot and brain-dead Shepard, then you probably have a point, despite the trilogy never really allowing such thing in-game. Even ME1/ME2 forced Shepard to do things that go against the whole carefree Shepard you are talking about.
Implying a Shepard (or anyone, really) that isn't melodramatic and angsty is brain dead or a robot?
Implying a Shepard (or anyone, really) that isn't melodramatic and angsty is brain dead or a robot?
Yes, And seriously, stop throwing "melodramatic" into this, you're' overreacting. It's impossible to not show any kind of reaction to what happens in ME3, the same thing happens in previous games. This whole carefree thing is nonsense, it's not like Shepard ever moved Ashley or Kaidan off the Prothean artifact in order to save them, or jumping down a falling plataform to reach a squadmate you apparently couldn't give that much of crap. If you don't express any kind of emotions - the simplest one, you're no different than a machine, that's just a thing, ask Master Chief about that. No wonder why he felt like an actual character in Halo 4.
I'm just a bit peeved that I always (tried to) play a bit of a Paragade Shepard that isn't afraid to jump headfirst into a battle and get his hands dirty, but in ME3 they turned him into a whiny crybaby. Especially when there's a dialogue choice, but all of the options say the same thing just in a different tone, like after the Thessia mission in ME3, when you talk to Joker and he makes a joke, prompting Shepard to get p**sed off and snap at him. Either dialogue option you choose, Shepard's reaction is the same.
I understand that, I really do.
Yes, And seriously, stop throwing "melodramatic" into this, you're' overreacting. It's impossible to not show any kind of reaction to what happens in ME3, the same thing happens in previous games. This whole carefree thing is nonsense, it's not like Shepard ever moved Ashley or Kaidan off the Prothean artifact in order to save them, or jumping down a falling plataform to reach a squadmate you apparently couldn't give that much of crap. If you don't express any kind of emotions - the simplest one, you're no different than a machine, that's just a thing, ask Master Chief about that. No wonder why he felt like an actual character in Halo 4.
Underlined: Tell me you see the irony.
In the history of humans doing things professionally there has been a plethora of motivations for said things including but not limited to: honor, duty, principles, responsibility, moral virtue, money, power, defiance, boredom and many others. Notice how none of these require strong emotions of any kind. Indeed most work better when emotions aren't there to interfere.
Shepard is a soldier out to do a job. I don't think we need God/MassivelyEffective here to tell you that when the military gets a job they do it and they take care of their own, not out of sentiment, but because that's what they do, that's what they're for.
Underlined: Tell me you see the irony.
In the history of humans doing things professionally there has been a plethora of motivations for said things including but not limited to: honor, duty, principles, responsibility, moral virtue, money, power, defiance, boredom and many others. Notice how none of these require strong emotions of any kind. Indeed most work better when emotions aren't there to interfere.
Shepard is a soldier out to do a job. I don't think we need God/MassivelyEffective here to tell you that when the military gets a job they do it and they take care of their own, not out of sentiment, but because that's what they do, that's what they're for.
Never said you require to be emotional to do something, that was never the point, stop throwing random stuff into this. And I find amazing how you think these people don't feel anything regarding their goals or whatsoever, way to generalize everything. Now you're just going a path of thinking that isn't related to what's being discussed in the first place.
You did imply that when you answered "Yes" to the question "Is a Shepard (or anyone, really) that isn't melodramatic and angsty brain dead or a robot?", and that's complete BS.
I envisioned my Shepard as someone who keeps his emotions to himself and only talks about them with those he trusts most. In any other situation, he's professional and detached. It's a character trait as valid as any other, a stereotypical male trait even, and if the game makes Shepard express strong emotions in situations where I'd think it wouldn't be appropriate, it attempts to destroy my character. If it forces utter stupidity into Shepard's mouth, it destroys my character which I envisioned to be reasonably intelligent. That is the problem, not the ability to show emotion. We all want that, but I damned well want a choice about what to express and when.
Also, emotion is invisible. If the dialogue is neutral, I can still infuse it with emotion, imagine that this character feels something but doesn't express it. That's why neutral dialogue options, as in DAI, are necessary. On the other hand, if the character expresses emotion, it's not possible to imagine it's not there. For that reason, neutral dialogue is better for roleplaying than emotional dialogue, as long as there aren't enough options to express a variety of emotions. IMO, DAI did rather well in this.
To get back to Shepard and Miranda, Shepard's dialogue at their first meeting on the Citadel was really good. I liked how he acted, how I could show that he really cared about her rather than being invariably superior and detached like in some of the scenes in ME2. The scene at the Council meeting, however, was complete stupidity. The councillors acted in a perfectly rational way, and my Shepard at least would not get angry about that but say something like "OK, I understand their viewpoint, but what do we do now?"
I envisioned my Shepard as someone who keeps his emotions to himself and only talks about them with those he trusts most. In any other situation, he's professional and detached. It's a character trait as valid as any other, a stereotypical male trait even, and if the game makes Shepard express strong emotions in situations where I'd think it wouldn't be appropriate, it attempts to destroy my character. If it forces utter stupidity into Shepard's mouth, it destroys my character which I envisioned to be reasonably intelligent. That is the problem, not the ability to show emotion. We all want that, but I damned well want a choice about what to express and when.
I will almost always agree with this, except in the situation you describe, and that's Shepard's reaction after the loss of Thessia. The Reapers weren't there when you first hear from the Asari Councilor so you're not prepared until Joker tells you. Then you find out they're in force just as much as they were on Earth. When you leave, the remaining Asari are essentially a resistance force now, just like they are on Earth. It's a huge blow to the allied forces. Shepard's response is terse and anxious, because he knows this. Even the best commanders lose their cool when they're dealt a blow, and Shepard realizes that losing Thessia may mean losing the galaxy. It's an important defeat, and a "cool and detached" Shepard would come off as someone ignorant of what was just lost, not as someone who remained control under pressure. And no matter what his response, Shepard is still very much in control, at least as much as he can be.
I wasn't talking about that situation, but the first meeting with the Council on the Citadel, when you ask for help for Earth. You really can't expect them to throw everything at Earth when the Reapers are already encroaching on their territory. To believe that is stupid, and to be angry when they don't do it is ignorant.
The situation after Thessia was different. Shepard's emotions were appropriate - it is a crushing blow after all - but he talked as if he could've prevented the loss of Thessia and had had the Crucible built in time to save it if not for Cerberus' intervention: "The loss of Thessia was on me/wasn't on the table". That's complete and utter stupidity. Nobody could've saved Thessia at that point.
I envisioned my Shepard as someone who keeps his emotions to himself and only talks about them with those he trusts most. In any other situation, he's professional and detached. It's a character trait as valid as any other, a stereotypical male trait even,
Precisely. And that's what people need in a leader as well, particularly during hard times. Because people look to them and if they see them cool and in control, then they'll be cool and in control (more or less). But if they freak out or wangst all the time, it'll all go to ****.
The roleplay argument is also a good one. Less is more and if we can't decide what we get worked up about (due to the limitations of the medium) then the game deciding that for us is worse. It's a fine line to walk when creating the player responses. Ambiguous leads are best because they offer a potential of emotion and motivation that's much more complex than anything they could script.
My favorite example: getting to the Shroud, where you have to decide whether to reveal the sabotage or not. I consider it one of the best roleplaying moment of the series. I wrote about it at length in this very thread so rather than try to repeat myself I'll just link the post. The point is, there's no over the top emotion, no wangst, nothing forced, hell nothing even implied. But the emotion I invested into Shepard at that moment was more real to me than any of the forced bullshit they tried to shove down our throats later...
I will almost always agree with this, except in the situation you describe, and that's Shepard's reaction after the loss of Thessia. The Reapers weren't there when you first hear from the Asari Councilor so you're not prepared until Joker tells you. Then you find out they're in force just as much as they were on Earth. When you leave, the remaining Asari are essentially a resistance force now, just like they are on Earth. It's a huge blow to the allied forces. Shepard's response is terse and anxious, because he knows this. Even the best commanders lose their cool when they're dealt a blow, and Shepard realizes that losing Thessia may mean losing the galaxy. It's an important defeat, and a "cool and detached" Shepard would come off as someone ignorant of what was just lost, not as someone who remained control under pressure. And no matter what his response, Shepard is still very much in control, at least as much as he can be.
...like this "gem".
Care to provide some arguments for the underlined?
There is nothing intrinsically special about Thessia that makes losing it objectively worse than losing any other homeworld. There is no greater practical advantage lost. It's not the main staging area, or production center, or even the most populated world I don't think. Thessia is pure forced emotional nonsense. We're supposed to feel bad because the pretty little asari are having their "purity" stomped on. Oh look how all this ageless grace is ruined! Is that Space Bambi's mother in the background? Oh the horror. Feel sad. I said feel sad, damn it!
It's ridiculous, and Shepard not only feels worse about it than losing his own homeworld right before his eyes but also takes the blame for it? Are you ****** kidding me? It's a hundred times worse than the Ardat-yakshi monastery, where Liara has a mini-breakdown because she sees a Banshee. Oh no, that "used to be a person"! Really? And the dozens, nay hundreds of husks we've mowed down over the course of three games were what, chopped liver?
Sorry, I don't buy it. The asari are not special snowflakes and they don't suffer any worse than what the rest of us have. Like you said, Thessia fell like Earth, the remaining population is getting liquefied or fighting a desperate losing resistance like Earth and also every other homeworld. They don't deserve any more tears than anyone else. And like it's been said before ad nauseum, Thessia was going to fall anyway. Shepard wasn't there to snap his fingers and make the bad boo-boos go away he was there to find a piece of the puzzle that has a slim chance of having everyone survive. Which, let's remember the asari hypocritically hid from the rest of the galaxy even as the enemy was at their doorstep. So if anything they deserve less sympathy.
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