82195 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

I envisioned my Shepard as someone who keeps his emotions to himself and only talks about them with those he trusts most. In any other situation, he's professional and detached. It's a character trait as valid as any other, a stereotypical male trait even, and if the game makes Shepard express strong emotions in situations where I'd think it wouldn't be appropriate, it attempts to destroy my character. If it forces utter stupidity into Shepard's mouth, it destroys my character which I envisioned to be reasonably intelligent. That is the problem, not the ability to show emotion. We all want that, but I damned well want a choice about what to express and when.

 

Also, emotion is invisible. If the dialogue is neutral, I can still infuse it with emotion, imagine that this character feels something but doesn't express it. That's why neutral dialogue options, as in DAI, are necessary. On the other hand, if the character expresses emotion, it's not possible to imagine it's not there. For that reason, neutral dialogue is better for roleplaying than emotional dialogue, as long as there aren't enough options to express a variety of emotions. IMO, DAI did rather well in this.  

 

To get back to Shepard and Miranda, Shepard's dialogue at their first meeting on the Citadel was really good. I liked how he acted, how I could show that he really cared about her rather than being invariably superior and detached like in some of the scenes in ME2. The scene at the Council meeting, however, was complete stupidity. The councillors acted in a perfectly rational way, and my Shepard at least would not get angry about that but say something like "OK, I understand their viewpoint, but what do we do now?"

 

Got to agree that's the problem. If there's going to be emotion there needs to be choice. If not leaving emotion for the player to infuse the character with is much better than forcing a singular vision of the character upon everyone.

 

The only problem i had with the first encounter on the citadel with Miranda is the rambling justification of his detention that Shep automatically makes. I really wanted a choice there.

 

I spent the whole game wincing at any moment earth was brought up, hoping to battle through without too much teeth grinding stupidity.

[Monica21]

I wrote about it at length in this very thread so rather than try to repeat myself I'll just link the post.

Of course you did. I'd imagine everything you write it "at length." And you should rewrite it, since you like talking so much.
 

...like this "gem".

Oh, for ****'s sake.
 

Care to provide some arguments for the underlined?

No, because you've obviously both misread and read more into everything I wrote. Which was not nearly as long as your lengthy and gas-baggy "rebuttal." Thessia and the Asari are the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy. Just by those two measures, losing Thessia is a big ****** deal.

Clearly you take issue with the Asari but I'd recommend that you share these issues with your therapist because I just don't care.

[Midnight Bliss]

It's ridiculous, and Shepard not only feels worse about it than losing his own homeworld right before his eyes but also takes the blame for it? Are you ****** kidding me? It's a hundred times worse than the Ardat-yakshi monastery, where Liara has a mini-breakdown because she sees a Banshee. Oh no, that "used to be a person"! Really? And the dozens, nay hundreds of husks we've mowed down over the course of three games were what, chopped liver?

Shep feeling so sad over the Thessia loss is an amalgam of the sadness of watching a beautiful world be destroyed, feeling like the Catalyst was within their grasp and all those Asari giving their lives to help reach it, only to end up losing it to Kai Leng and everything basically ending up being for nothing, and the fact Shep is barely holding it together emotionally to the point point she practically has to become a robot in order to cope. Had Thessia happened earlier in the story and not involved losing the Catalyst I think amount of sadness would have been more proportional to other losses.

[CrutchCricket]

Of course you did. I'd imagine everything you write it "at length." And you should rewrite it, since you like talking so much.
 
Oh, for ****'s sake.
 
No, because you've obviously both misread and read more into everything I wrote. Which was not nearly as long as your lengthy and gas-baggy "rebuttal." Thessia and the Asari are the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy. Just by those two measures, losing Thessia is a big ****** deal.

Clearly you take issue with the Asari but I'd recommend that you share these issues with your therapist because I just don't care.

Perhaps you should unrustle your jimmies before we continue. Wouldn't want this to get nasty, now would we?

 

Now which two "measures" are you referring to exactly? I count only one statement that vaguely resembles a point. The asari are the most technologically advanced are they? I could contest that given the geth have run unchecked for centuries and have made a much better name for themselves, both as threats and as innovators (thermal clips were their idea) but I think a better point would be: so ****** what? Not only did they get owned just as hard as everybody else (and cried more about it), but what was their major contribution to the war anyway? Oh that's right, **** all vis a vi dragging their feet at every opportunity. I'm not talking about random commando squad war assets or a ship or two you pick up by planet scanning, I'm talking what the asari as a unified body offered. Nothing. It wasn't the asari that forced the Reapers to tread lightly in their territory it was the turians. It wasn't asari that provided the turians relief, it was the krogan. It wasn't the asari the brought the geth at the brink of extinction it was the quarians. Just what the hell have asari done that's so special? "Have the asari ever actually won a war?" They are the very symbol of stagnation and complacency that makes the holokid's nonsense work. Everything that's special about them came out of a Prothean bottle. I'd rather have the geth who unilaterally pledged themselves from the start, or even the ****** sickly quarians who nearly brought both races to extinction, at my side than the asari. Because they at least do something.

 

But don't let facts get in your way. I eagerly await your poorly stringed ad hominem reply.

 

Shep feeling so sad over the Thessia loss is an amalgam of the sadness of watching a beautiful world be destroyed, feeling like the Catalyst was within their grasp and all those Asari giving their lives to help reach it, only to end up losing it to Kai Leng and everything basically ending up being for nothing, and the fact Shep is barely holding it together emotionally to the point point she practically has to become a robot in order to cope. Had Thessia happened earlier in the story and not involved losing the Catalyst I think amount of sadness would have been more proportional to other losses.

That'd be acceptable... except that isn't what happens. Like at all. At no point in Shepard's wangsting during those sequences does he mention losing the Catalyst or losing to Kai Leng. That's not what sets him off at Joker for no goddamn reason, that's not why he acts all contrite and spineless in front of the asari councilor. It's because all those poor asari died and their deaths are "on him". Gag me with a spoon.

 

Oh and beautiful world? Really, have you looked outside lately? Earth's nothing to shake a stick at. Neither is Sur'Kesh for that matter. Rannoch's a bit bare but there's nothing wrong with it either, the geth have maintained it well.We don't really see Palaven but I'm sure it's not homely and even the ruins of the ancient krogan are fascinating. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but that's all besides the point anyway. Who gives a **** about beauty in the middle of a galactic extinction event? If beauty was the only casualty of the apocalypse I'd be freakin ecstatic.

[LineHolder]

...like this "gem".

 

Care to provide some arguments for the underlined?

 

There is nothing intrinsically special about Thessia that makes losing it objectively worse than losing any other homeworld. There is no greater practical advantage lost. It's not the main staging area, or production center, or even the most populated world I don't think. Thessia is pure forced emotional nonsense. We're supposed to feel bad because the pretty little asari are having their "purity" stomped on. Oh look how all this ageless grace is ruined! Is that Space Bambi's mother in the background? Oh the horror. Feel sad. I said feel sad, damn it!

 

It's ridiculous, and Shepard not only feels worse about it than losing his own homeworld right before his eyes but also takes the blame for it? Are you ****** kidding me? It's a hundred times worse than the Ardat-yakshi monastery, where Liara has a mini-breakdown because she sees a Banshee. Oh no, that "used to be a person"! Really? And the dozens, nay hundreds of husks we've mowed down over the course of three games were what, chopped liver?

 

Sorry, I don't buy it. The asari are not special snowflakes and they don't suffer any worse than what the rest of us have. Like you said, Thessia fell like Earth, the remaining population is getting liquefied or fighting a desperate losing resistance like Earth and also every other homeworld. They don't deserve any more tears than anyone else. And like it's been said before ad nauseum, Thessia was going to fall anyway. Shepard wasn't there to snap his fingers and make the bad boo-boos go away he was there to find a piece of the puzzle that has a slim chance of having everyone survive. Which, let's remember the asari hypocritically hid from the rest of the galaxy even as the enemy was at their doorstep. So if anything they deserve less sympathy.

 

An Asari and other aliens were willing to work with human terrorists to try and save humans from the Collectors in the 2nd game. You don't need Shepard's dialogue to be the way it is about Thessia, but your outlook on them is very selfish. Thessia didn't have more tears shed for it than Earth. Earth is what everyone in the game seems to be crying about from the first few minutes. And the game stupidly culminates in everyone throwing all their forces (regardless of the state of their own homeworlds) into a fight to save the human one (yes, Citadel is above Earth for convenience's sake ... because the plot needed Earth to be 'saved').

 

Accept it, if you don't like the auto-dialogue about Thessia, every damned forced emotion about leaving Earth and saving Earth and taking back Earth should be deleted. It would hell of a shorter game though and they would have saved quite a lot on the voice acting fees.

[Andrew Lucas]

You did imply that when you answered "Yes" to the question "Is a Shepard (or anyone, really) that isn't melodramatic and angsty brain dead or a robot?", and that's complete BS.

I envisioned my Shepard as someone who keeps his emotions to himself and only talks about them with those he trusts most. In any other situation, he's professional and detached. It's a character trait as valid as any other, a stereotypical male trait even, and if the game makes Shepard express strong emotions in situations where I'd think it wouldn't be appropriate, it attempts to destroy my character. If it forces utter stupidity into Shepard's mouth, it destroys my character which I envisioned to be reasonably intelligent. That is the problem, not the ability to show emotion. We all want that, but I damned well want a choice about what to express and when.

Also, emotion is invisible. If the dialogue is neutral, I can still infuse it with emotion, imagine that this character feels something but doesn't express it. That's why neutral dialogue options, as in DAI, are necessary. On the other hand, if the character expresses emotion, it's not possible to imagine it's not there. For that reason, neutral dialogue is better for roleplaying than emotional dialogue, as long as there aren't enough options to express a variety of emotions. IMO, DAI did rather well in this.

To get back to Shepard and Miranda, Shepard's dialogue at their first meeting on the Citadel was really good. I liked how he acted, how I could show that he really cared about her rather than being invariably superior and detached like in some of the scenes in ME2. The scene at the Council meeting, however, was complete stupidity. The councillors acted in a perfectly rational way, and my Shepard at least would not get angry about that but say something like "OK, I understand their viewpoint, but what do we do now?"

Not really, I did say that being melodramatic is an overreaction. You claim to have read the post yet you only take context-free bits to talk your point over it.

Again, you accuse ME3 of taking your control off Shepard, when you never totally had one, I also didn't want to open up to Liara in ME2, nor try to save Joker when The Normady blows up and in result dying during my only renegade pt. That was supposed to be a ruthless Shepard, who appreciates the company but wouldn't die for just somebody.

Yes, DAI seems to be the middle ground when it comes to control over your emotions, indeed.

[Monica21]

Perhaps you should unrustle your jimmies before we continue. Wouldn't want this to get nasty, now would we?
 
Now which two "measures" are you referring to exactly? I count only one statement that vaguely resembles a point. The asari are the most technologically advanced are they? I could contest that given the geth have run unchecked for centuries and have made a much better name for themselves, both as threats and as innovators (thermal clips were their idea) but I think a better point would be: so ****** what? Not only did they get owned just as hard as everybody else (and cried more about it), but what was their major contribution to the war anyway? Oh that's right, **** all vis a vi dragging their feet at every opportunity. I'm not talking about random commando squad war assets or a ship or two you pick up by planet scanning, I'm talking what the asari as a unified body offered. Nothing. It wasn't the asari that forced the Reapers to tread lightly in their territory it was the turians. It wasn't asari that provided the turians relief, it was the krogan. It wasn't the asari the brought the geth at the brink of extinction it was the quarians. Just what the hell have asari done that's so special? "Have the asari ever actually won a war?" They are the very symbol of stagnation and complacency that makes the holokid's nonsense work. Everything that's special about them came out of a Prothean bottle. I'd rather have the geth who unilaterally pledged themselves from the start, or even the ****** sickly quarians who nearly brought both races to extinction, at my side than the asari. Because they at least do something.
 
But don't let facts get in your way. I eagerly await your poorly stringed ad hominem reply.

Yep, I still stand by "gas bag."

[CrutchCricket]

An Asari and other aliens were willing to work with human terrorists to try and save humans from the Collectors in the 2nd game. You don't need Shepard's dialogue to be the way it is about Thessia, but your outlook on them is very selfish. Thessia didn't have more tears shed for it than Earth. Earth is what everyone in the game seems to be crying about from the first few minutes. And the game stupidly culminates in everyone throwing all their forces (regardless of the state of their own homeworlds) into a fight to save the human one (yes, Citadel is above Earth for convenience's sake ... because the plot needed Earth to be 'saved').
 
Accept it, if you don't like the auto-dialogue about Thessia, every damned forced emotion about leaving Earth and saving Earth and taking back Earth should be deleted. It would hell of a shorter game though and they would have saved quite a lot on the voice acting fees.

Yeah, every other alien was willing to work with human "terrorists", some multiple times over. So bringing that up is pointless.
 
And I don't agree with the focus on Earth either, so yeah all that was dumb too. The Reapers are targeting everyone. It's a galactic extinction event. Galaxy >  any one homeworld, no matter whose it is.
 
Also, there's a difference between one species feeling attached to their homeworld and feeling sad when it burns and forcing everyone to feel sad for one they have no real ties to. There's also a difference between feeling sad for a homeworld burning and feeling responsible for it. Shepard was no more responsible for Thessia than I am for the sun rising.
 

Yep, I still stand by "gas bag."

So, admitting defeat, then?

Good. I really doubted you had anything intelligent left to say anyway.

[LineHolder]

Also, there's a difference between one species feeling attached to their homeworld and feeling sad when it burns and forcing everyone to feel sad for one they have no real ties to. There's also a difference between feeling sad for a homeworld burning and feeling responsible for it. Shepard was no more responsible for Thessia than I am for the sun rising.

 

The difference is everyone and their mother asking Shepard about Earth. The least Shepard can do is express remorse for Thessia. The auto dialogue doesn't need to be there, but if it's there for Earth, might as well keep it there for Thessia as well.

 

 

Yeah, every other alien was willing to work with human "terrorists", some multiple times over. So bringing that up is pointless.

 

Not it's not. Tali was willing to work with Shepard on a Cerberus ship inspite of them attacking the Migrant Fleet and we know how important the fleet is to the Quarians. While the characterization of Cerberus has always been problematic even before botching them to oblivion in ME3, the willingness of aliens to work for it despite its actions against their species is a mark of their nobility.

 

Notice how the Alliance and its propaganda (codex) regard the Batarians. What if the Quarians, Asari, Turians view humans like humans view Batarians? They'd be within their rights to let Earth perish like the Batarian planet near the Alpha relay.

[Andrew Lucas]

Yeah, every other alien was willing to work with human "terrorists", some multiple times over. So bringing that up is pointless.
 
And I don't agree with the focus on Earth either, so yeah all that was dumb too. The Reapers are targeting everyone. It's a galactic extinction event. Galaxy >  any one homeworld, no matter whose it is.
 
Also, there's a difference between one species feeling attached to their homeworld and feeling sad when it burns and forcing everyone to feel sad for one they have no real ties to. There's also a difference between feeling sad for a homeworld burning and feeling responsible for it. Shepard was no more responsible for Thessia than I am for the sun rising.
 

So, admitting defeat, then?

Good. I really doubted you had anything intelligent left to say anyway.

 

This kind of treatment is exacly why people shouldn't bother. I expected better from you, Cricket.

[CrutchCricket]

The difference is everyone and their mother asking Shepard about Earth. The least Shepard can do is express remorse for Thessia. The auto dialogue doesn't need to be there, but if it's there for Earth, might as well keep it there for Thessia as well.

And? Garrus gets asked about Palaven, as does Liara about Thessia when it happens. The difference is no one is forced to cross-freak out about someone else's planet. Furthermore, you can express sympathies without going on suicide watch.

And all of this would be rendered moot if it wasn't auto-dialogue and therefore forced. If it was just another conversation choice, more power to you if that's the way you wanna play it.
 

Not it's not. Tali was willing to work with Shepard on a Cerberus ship inspite of them attacking the Migrant Fleet and we know how important the fleet is to the Quarians. While the characterization of Cerberus has always been problematic even before botching them to oblivion in ME3, the willingness of aliens to work for it despite its actions against their species is a mark of their nobility.
 
Notice how the Alliance and its propaganda (codex) regard the Batarians. What if the Quarians, Asari, Turians view humans like humans view Batarians? They'd be within their rights to let Earth perish like the Batarian planet near the Alpha relay.

Errr... sure. But by your standards every race has a member who's shown this mark of nobility (except Batarians and we all know they're jerks, and the minor races). Therefore this isn't a point for the asari being special. And the fact that some returned even when Shepard temporarily "fell from grace" might be nobler still. So would you then say that turians and quarians are therefore nobler than asari?

 

 

This kind of treatment is exacly why people shouldn't bother. I expected better from you, Cricket.

Hey I didn't resort to personal attacks. Expect better from those that do.

[Midnight Bliss]

That'd be acceptable... except that isn't what happens. Like at all. At no point in Shepard's wangsting during those sequences does he mention losing the Catalyst or losing to Kai Leng. That's not what sets him off at Joker for no goddamn reason, that's not why he acts all contrite and spineless in front of the asari councilor. It's because all those poor asari died and their deaths are "on him". Gag me with a spoon.

 

Oh and beautiful world? Really, have you looked outside lately? Earth's nothing to shake a stick at. Neither is Sur'Kesh for that matter. Rannoch's a bit bare but there's nothing wrong with it either, the geth have maintained it well.We don't really see Palaven but I'm sure it's not homely and even the ruins of the ancient krogan are fascinating. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but that's all besides the point anyway. Who gives a **** about beauty in the middle of a galactic extinction event? If beauty was the only casualty of the apocalypse I'd be freakin ecstatic.

Yes it is what happens.

 

Shep sounds upset when she tells the Asari Councilor that Cerberus showed up and made of with the Catalyst, Anderson and Shep have an entire conversation in which he tells her not to let the loss get to her and buck up and keep going, and Shep obviously wanting to stick it to Cerberus in group meeting after Thessia.

 

Thessia is said to be a beautiful world in the story whether you like it or not.

 

I can only assume judging by the excessive amount of angst, melodrama and cursing in your posts that you're either a troll or being purposefully combative and obtuse in order to arbitrarily argue and get a rise out of people. Either way I won't be participating further, but I will note that there are places better suited for your meltdown than the Miranda fan thread, and that it's probably about time you move along. Just sayin~

[Andrew Lucas]

 

Hey I didn't resort to personal attacks. Expect better from those that do.

 

Just remain classy, we are here for mutual reasons, no reason to get stressed around here.

 

[Midnight Bliss]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CrutchCricket]

Yes it is what happens.
 
Shep sounds upset when she tells the Asari Councilor that Cerberus showed up and made of with the Catalyst, Anderson and Shep have an entire conversation in which he tells her not to let the loss get to her and buck up and keep going, and Shep obviously wanting to stick it to Cerberus in group meeting after Thessia.

Shepard had no reason to be contrite with the asari councilor. He could've expressed sympathies without moping. When he talks to Anderson, there is no reason to claim responsibility for Thessia. I'm fairly certain one of the dialogue options in the war room between the chats does as well but at least that's avoidable. Furthermore, there was no reason to blow up at Joker the way he did. If there was a path that only expressed anger/disappointment at the loss of the beacon we wouldn't be having this conversation. Being forced to feel unduly sad/responsible for Thessia is the issue.
 

Thessia is said to be a beautiful world in the story whether you like it or not.

Irrelevant. We're fighting for the survival of the galaxy.
 

I can only assume judging by the excessive amount of angst, melodrama and cursing in your posts that you're either a troll or being purposefully combative and obtuse in order to arbitrarily argue and get a rise out of people. Either way I won't be participating further, but I will note that there are places better suited for your meltdown than the Miranda fan thread, and that it's probably about time you move along. Just sayin~

You must be new here.

[LineHolder]

 

 

 

This one is the best of all of Miranda's art. I like the variation in which everything but the omni-tool, her face and the band of sunlight on it is shrouded in darkness.

[Monica21]

So, admitting defeat, then?

Good. I really doubted you had anything intelligent left to say anyway.

If that's what makes you feel better.

[o Ventus]

Oh sweet, actual activity in this thread again.

[o Ventus]

Shep feeling so sad over the Thessia loss is an amalgam of the sadness of watching a beautiful world be destroyed, feeling like the Catalyst was within their grasp and all those Asari giving their lives to help reach it, only to end up losing it to Kai Leng and everything basically ending up being for nothing, and the fact Shep is barely holding it together emotionally to the point point she practically has to become a robot in order to cope. Had Thessia happened earlier in the story and not involved losing the Catalyst I think amount of sadness would have been more proportional to other losses.

 

This implies that the loss of any other planet wouldn't be as traumatic, or that any other planet in comparison to Thessia is somehow less "beautiful". Personally I think watching Palaven burn is worse, or an Earthborn Shepard watching his/her own home planet be overrun.

[Livi14]

I'm pretty sure Shepard was more mopey about being beaten by that poor excuse for a character and losing the data on the catalsyt. It is also Shepards first "real" failure to do what he set out to do - in fact, I think they did an excellent job - I felt just as furious as Shepard about the whole situation and I felt bad for her.

On the other hand, I don't see why Shepard would be emotionally invested in Earth - and we spend most of the game whining about how important Earth is and how all the other races should focus more on that planet than their own homeworlds. I certainly cared a lot more about Thessia than I did about Earth, so I took it's loss much more seriously than Earth's loss. In-universe context, I guess Thessia falling is a bit like New York or London being attacked, but much bigger. Not only is it the center of the galactic economy, but is a symbol, from the codex, as "the crown jewel of the galaxy." It also ensured that the galaxy's supply of eezo is maintained during the war.

[o Ventus]

I'm pretty sure Shepard was more mopey about being beaten by that poor excuse for a character and losing the data on the catalsyt. It is also Shepards first "real" failure to do what he set out to do - in fact, I think they did an excellent job - I felt just as furious as Shepard about the whole situation and I felt bad for her.

On the other hand, I don't see why Shepard would be emotionally invested in Earth - and we spend most of the game whining about how important Earth is and how all the other races should focus more on that planet than their own homeworlds. I certainly cared a lot more about Thessia than I did about Earth, so I took it's loss much more seriously than Earth's loss. In-universe context, I guess Thessia falling is a bit like New York or London being attacked, but much bigger. Not only is it the center of the galactic economy, but is a symbol, from the codex, as "the crown jewel of the galaxy." It also ensured that the galaxy's supply of eezo is maintained during the war.

 

Thessia is the center of the Thessian economy. The Citadel is the center of galactic everything. And it isn't as if Thessia is the only major source of Eezo in the galaxy, that would be hugely irresponsible even out of wartime, effectively giving the asari a monopoly on biotic people.

[CrutchCricket]

I guess Thessia falling is a bit like New York or London being attacked, but much bigger. Not only is it the center of the galactic economy, but is a symbol, from the codex, as "the crown jewel of the galaxy." It also ensured that the galaxy's supply of eezo is maintained during the war.

If the whole world was burning, I wouldn't really give a damn if/when New York or London fell- at least not more than any other major city. And certainly not more than my hometown. Though I also wouldn't insist on every nation's army prioritizing my hometown just because "the feels". Doing so is completely illogical and moronic.

[Abedsbrother]

Trying to imagine what Miranda would say to all of this... bickering...

[CrutchCricket]

Trying to imagine what Miranda would say to all of this... bickering...

She'd say people get butthurt more easily these days.

 

She'd also find the thought of asari being special snowflakes laughable, if not insulting. Miranda acknowledges and admires objective superiority. But she doesn't fawn unnecessarily.

 

Anyway, less tangential **** and more Miranda:

[Andrew Lucas]

Miranda wouldn't get involved into this discussion to begin with.