82210 réponses à ce sujet

[enayasoul]

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...



Also found this worth appreciating. I absolutely love that little smirk.

Ooooh, Watch out Shep...!  <3<3<3  She has something sinister but fun in mind!  

I love that picture!

[SpaceinMind]

Ieldra2 wrote...

But now....peace...

I love her eyes in this one, she has a very dreamy look to her. 

[Ieldra]

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...

OzzyMcRcky wrote...
Honest to god, if Miranda isn't a main squad member I am going to do a total vader turn. I'm going renegade and destroying the galaxy. People won't be fearing the reapers, they'll be fearing Shepard !

Me too. I said this in the car with my friends today, while explaining the game to them. I told them that if Miri isn't a LI/Squadmate, Earth can just suck it, and let the Reapers have their fun. XD

I appreciate the sentiment and I admit having thought about such a thing as well. But I don't think I could let the galaxy burn for the sake of one woman. Acting on anger without reflection is just as bad as acting on moral outrage without reflection.

I will do one "we lose" run if it's possible, but not for that reason.

[Ieldra]

jreezy wrote...

jtav wrote...
Not this again. I think it was horribly OOC/rushed and I'll kill her without a thought if that's ME3 Miranda.

Once you talk to her about the collector base and she explains her reasoning it doesn't seem so out of character, at least not to me.

Where did she explain it? She just has the betrayal line at the base and if you destroy the base and talk to her later she says you made the right decision and that the base had to be destroyed, but not why she thinks that. There is no reasoning.

[Ieldra]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
twitter.com/#!/macwalterslives/status/104357079514488832
"Mac how close are we to getting some info or a screenshot of Miranda?"

"Well I just finished first pass writing on a scene with the lovely Ms. Lawson. One of the most fun/challenging dialogs to date!"

More scenes! More!

LOL, I can see how it can be challenging if they try to take into account what Miranda's fans think. I don't think there's another character fan base split down the middle as we are. It's like balancing on a knife's edge.

I wonder if those who choose more Renegade options in conversations with her will see a very different Miranda than those who choose more Paragon ones. If it's done well and comes across naturally and doesn't convey the impression that Shepard influences her, it would be a perfect solution.

 

[Shotokanguy]

You know another thing I forgot to mention, regarding the base decision?

The reason I like Paragons is because a lot of the choices boil down to never taking the easy path if it isn't the right one. Sure, we're talking about the safety of the galaxy here, so some choices I made felt difficult because they may have doomed more people...but at the end of the game, after my gut reaction was to destroy the base (before learning which one was Paragon) because I knew using it was the easy path. Again, hard to justify when we're talking about the fate of the galaxy right?

But someone mentioned Miranda should've thought like Mordin and Legion when it came to the base...except Legion is against using it. And its reasoning, while derived from a mechanical process, has its own value. I understood it, and in the frame of the narrative, apparently Shepard did too. Who is to say Miranda didn't have a gut instinct like me, didn't have thoughts similar to Legion and my Shepard?

[Vertigo_1]

Here's a response to the previous tweet:

Vertigo_1 wrote...
twitter.com/#!/macwalterslives/status/104357079514488832
"Mac how close are we to getting some info or a screenshot of Miranda?"

"Well
I just finished first pass writing on a scene with the lovely Ms.
Lawson. One of the most fun/challenging dialogs to date!"

A response to the above^

twitter.com/#!/macwalterslives/status/104411378055520256
"So then not all of the dialog has been recorded by the actors. how late can something be recorded to make it in the game?"

"Great question. Technically we should be done soon. Realistically it doesn't work that way. We'll record a couple months more."

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 19 août 2011 - 06:19 .

[jakeN7]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

jtav wrote...
Not this again. I think it was horribly OOC/rushed and I'll kill her without a thought if that's ME3 Miranda.

Once you talk to her about the collector base and she explains her reasoning it doesn't seem so out of character, at least not to me.

Where did she explain it? She just has the betrayal line at the base and if you destroy the base and talk to her later she says you made the right decision and that the base had to be destroyed, but not why she thinks that. There is no reasoning.

I agree that it is a little OOC but where is it ever stated that miranda believes that the ends justify the means no matter what the cost? maybe she just has a legitimate problem with research involving human sacrifices?

- I apologize i know this is an old topic as i have been creeping on these boards for a while now

[Ieldra]

jakeN7 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

jtav wrote...
Not this again. I think it was horribly OOC/rushed and I'll kill her without a thought if that's ME3 Miranda.

Once you talk to her about the collector base and she explains her reasoning it doesn't seem so out of character, at least not to me.

Where did she explain it? She just has the betrayal line at the base and if you destroy the base and talk to her later she says you made the right decision and that the base had to be destroyed, but not why she thinks that. There is no reasoning.

I agree that it is a little OOC but where is it ever stated that miranda believes that the ends justify the means no matter what the cost? maybe she just has a legitimate problem with research involving human sacrifices?

- I apologize i know this is an old topic as i have been creeping on these boards for a while now

We all think that Miranda isn't as ruthless as TIM.

The problem here is that Miranda doesn't refer to what TIM might do with the base. She acts as if keeping the base as such is wrong. "using anything from this base seems like a betrayal." Which - as Legion says - it isn't. "This facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.".
At least if you think it through and don't follow your intuitions without reflection. And Miranda is not the person who wouldn't think things through - after all this might be the most important decision she was ever involved in. Recall what she says at her LM: "For once, I haven't planned that far ahead". She's a planner and thinker, and if she came to the conclusion that the base must be destroyed, she would have a good reason for it, not a flimsy sentiment.

Her sudden switch of opinion as such is already jarring, but the betrayal line pushes things over the edge into the OOC.

I really don't want to continue with this, but I think that needed clearing up.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2011 - 06:56 .

[Ieldra]

Haven't posted this in a long time. Need to play ME2 again....

[Sebby]

That we have Miranda not supporting keeping the base and characters who supported it but who made a complete 180 afterwords is a very bad omen of what's to come in ME3 I'm afraid.

[Skullheart]

After de derelict reaper, I doubt that Miranda will experimet with any reaper technology (the CB is full of that). I believe. Maybe  she thinks that it is more a threat than an useful resource.

Modifié par Skullheart, 19 août 2011 - 07:06 .

[flemm]

She acts as if keeping the base as such is wrong. "using anything from this base seems like a betrayal." Which - as Legion says - it isn't. "This facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.".

There's no reason to assume that Legion is correct about this, however, in several respects. Obviously, the facility is more than data. It is also potentially a tool, a weapon, etc. Moreover, while keeping it might potentially save others, it also might potentially destroy others, so neither argument necessarily outweighs the other.

Other issues to consider: there is really no way for Miranda and Shepard to "keep the base" for themselves. They have no way to move it, and no way to prevent TIM from traveling there. Also, it seems likely that information about the Reapers was taken by Shepard & Co. prior to destroying the base (final cut scene), so not all of the base's intelligence value (data) was lost. 

Modifié par flemm, 19 août 2011 - 07:06 .

[Ieldra]

Shotokanguy wrote...
You know another thing I forgot to mention, regarding the base decision?

The reason I like Paragons is because a lot of the choices boil down to never taking the easy path if it isn't the right one. Sure, we're talking about the safety of the galaxy here, so some choices I made felt difficult because they may have doomed more people...but at the end of the game, after my gut reaction was to destroy the base (before learning which one was Paragon) because I knew using it was the easy path. Again, hard to justify when we're talking about the fate of the galaxy right?

But someone mentioned Miranda should've thought like Mordin and Legion when it came to the base...except Legion is against using it. And its reasoning, while derived from a mechanical process, has its own value. I understood it, and in the frame of the narrative, apparently Shepard did too. Who is to say Miranda didn't have a gut instinct like me, didn't have thoughts similar to Legion and my Shepard?

First, Legion doesn't is not against keeping the base: "This facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

And yes, Miranda may have a "gut instinct" (a moral intuition). What I'm saying is that it is out of character for her to act on it.

And if I may so blunt: taking the harder path because it is right will turn out to be very, very morally questionable if you gamble with the life of the galaxy, when, as far as you know, there may not be a harder path but none. Our moral intuitions are not made to deal with risks of this magnitude. There are whole books about why following your intuitions in situations like this often leads to disaster. But that's another topic. 

@Skullheart:
Yes, that may be. But then, she should have said so. I would have disagreed, but there would have been a real argument on her side.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2011 - 07:10 .

[flemm]

First, Legion doesn't is not against keeping the base: "This facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

If you destroy the base and speak to Legion afterward, he seems pleased with the decision. The reasoning provided is that, by refusing to use the Reaper tech, Shepard is acting in a manner similar to the Geth, who refuse to have their future decided by the Old Machines.

[Sebby]

flemm wrote...

First, Legion doesn't is not against keeping the base: "This facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

If you destroy the base and speak to Legion afterward, he seems pleased with the decision. The reasoning provided is that, by refusing to use the Reaper tech, Shepard is acting in a manner similar to the Geth, who refuse to have their future decided by the Old Machines.

All the squadmates who favored keeping the base make a complete 180 like that. It's schizophrenic writing at it's worst.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

She acts as if keeping the base as such is wrong. "using anything from this base seems like a betrayal." Which - as Legion says - it isn't. "This facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.".

There's no reason to assume that Legion is correct about this, however, in several respects. Obviously, the facility is more than data. It is also potentially a tool, a weapon, etc. Moreover, while keeping it might potentially save others, it also might potentially destroy others, so neither argument necessarily outweighs the other.

Other issues to consider: there is really no way for Miranda and Shepard to "keep the base" for themselves. They have no way to move it, and no way to prevent TIM from traveling there. Also, it seems likely that information about the Reapers was taken by Shepard & Co. prior to destroying the base (final cut scene), so not all of the base's intelligence value (data) was lost.

Yet, Legion is absolutely correct in its second sentence. The bad consequences may outweigh the good ones, but keeping the base as such has no inherent ethical value. Studying the technology has no ethical value. This is a conclusion I find unescapable, and if you think otherwise I would want to know why? Yet, Miranda acts as if it does.
You point out reasons to destroy the base. Let's say I agree with them. Let's even say Miranda would agree with them - if she brought them up. But she doesn't reason.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2011 - 07:19 .

[flemm]

All the squadmates who favored keeping the base make a complete 180 like that. It's schizophrenic writing at it's worst.

Or maybe they just mulled it over, crunched the numbers and considered other aspects of the problem? Don't get me wrong, I see what you're saying, but a reaction on the spot is not necessarily going to be set in stone forever.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

All the squadmates who favored keeping the base make a complete 180 like that. It's schizophrenic writing at it's worst.

Or maybe they just mulled it over, crunched the numbers and considered other aspects of the problem? Don't get me wrong, I see what you're saying, but a reaction on the spot is not necessarily going to be set in stone forever.

You can rationalize anything if you are absolutely determined to do so. There is always an infinite number of scenarios that fits any given set of evidence. But as I said elsewhere: "There isn't any evidence that X didn't happen" has zero weight as an argument if you don't have some indication that X actually did happen".

If one or two of the team members changed their minds it would have been believable. That they all do is ridiculous. I would also have expected one or the other to change back from recommending to destroy the base. Miranda, for instance - reacting impulsively at the base, then thinking it through and coming to a different conclusion would have been totally believable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2011 - 07:28 .

[Sebby]

Thankfully my favorite squadmate Zaeed didn't do a 180.... even if it's only due to not saying anything. They already made a mockery of him with that "charm" option in his LM...

[goofyomnivore]

I was also anticipating a lecture/questioning from Miranda about why I destroyed it resignation or not. I find the keeping the base dialogue with Miranda really odd as well.

Modifié par strive, 19 août 2011 - 07:34 .

[Spanky Magoo]

Ieldra2 wrote...


The problem here is that Miranda doesn't refer to what TIM might do with the base. She acts as if keeping the base as such is wrong. "using anything from this base seems like a betrayal." Which - as Legion says - it isn't. "This facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.".
At least if you think it through and don't follow your intuitions without reflection. And Miranda is not the person who wouldn't think things through - after all this might be the most important decision she was ever involved in. Recall what she says at her LM: "For once, I haven't planned that far ahead". She's a planner and thinker, and if she came to the conclusion that the base must be destroyed, she would have a good reason for it, not a flimsy sentiment.

Her sudden switch of opinion as such is already jarring, but the betrayal line pushes things over the edge into the OOC.

I really don't want to continue with this, but I think that needed clearing up.

Yeah, I almost always destroy the base but ive nerver agreed with the "its an abomination" sentiment. I would have liked a option along the lines of " The reapers built this place to create more of themselves! You brought me back to stop them, and thats exactly what im going to do. With or with out you." idk just not a holier than thou approach.

[flemm]

Yet, Legion is absolutely correct in its second sentence. The bad consequences may outweigh the good ones, but keeping the base as such has no inherent ethical value. Studying the technology has no ethical value. This is a conclusion I find unescapable, and if you think otherwise I would want to know why?

I'm not sure that any of the above is true, given what we know about the technology in question. (I'm not sure it's false either, for the record, but there is plenty of room for doubt.)

Keep in mind what we know about this tech: a dead husk of a Reaper drove the scientists studying it insane, corrupted them completely, resulting in their deaths. Keeping the base with the intention of studying it and using it could very well be seen as unethical with that in mind. (Not to mention rather stupid.) TIM presumably has all the specs for the Reaper IFF, so it is not out of the question that he could access the base on his own. Many ships have traveled through the relay over the course of history.

Yet, Miranda acts as if it does.
You point out reasons to destroy the base. Let's say I agree with them. Let's even say Miranda would agree with them - if she brought them up. But she doesn't reason.

How do you know this? I would certainly be open to hearing more about her thought process, but nothing about the content or the tone of what she says suggests that she hasn't given the choice plenty of thought.

If anything, the decision to destroy the base is about refusing to be dominated by one of the most powerful emotions: fear. Shepard states this plainly. But it's plausible that this is part of what Miranda means as well, when she says that keeping the base would feel like a betrayal.

Modifié par flemm, 19 août 2011 - 07:45 .

[flemm]

If one or two of the team members changed their minds it would have been believable. That they all do is ridiculous.

At most two of them do, right? You don't get the opinion of everyone in the squad at the time of the decision.

Modifié par flemm, 19 août 2011 - 07:39 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

If one or two of the team members changed their minds it would have been believable. That they all do is ridiculous.

At most two of them do, right? You don't get the opinion of everyone in the squad at the time of the decision.

In any one playthrough, yes. But as soon as you play the SM several times with a different squad, you'll notice that they all do. That influences how you perceive the characters.

Were it not so, this whole debate wouldn't exist. After all, *I* never get Miranda's "betrayal" line because I always choose the middle option in the first exchange with TIM, asking "What will you do with it" before I make my final decision. Nonetheless, this line is part of her character as perceived by her fans as a group. The same way as the fact that all team members who have supported keeping the base change their minds afterwards is part of their characters as perceived by the players as a group.