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[Arijharn]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think Mr. 'Lawson' has really damaged her self-esteem at all really. She may have doubts due to her creation and therefore her 'place in the world,' but at the same time she's very confident, and confidence I think is a pretty hard thing to 'fake.'

 

Confidence and Self-Esteem are two different things -  One ties to how well one  believes they can  do something and the other ties to ones value in oneself

She is very confident in her abilites but her  self esteem actually rather low because she  see's herself as nothing  of a tool - a means to  end.  Listen to how she speaks of the herself she talks as if she is  selling herself as a  Luxury car. 

"It's okay Shephard, my father didn't break me." (paraphrased... and I only played this section the other day too :\\

She does go on about how she's uncertain about her place in the universe, but I think everyone does that at some point in their lives, but she isn't using it as an excuse to hold herself back, even if she's overly critical of herself.

[jtav]

@ Ieldra: I doubt it. You'd essentially be punishing the player for doing as well as possible on the SM. Besides, Miranda is one of the easiest characters to turn traitor without it. Her love for Oriana is one of her greatest virtues, but it's also a weakness that can be exploited.

Just finishing a game myself. Still no idea how I'm going to resolve my romantic entanglements. Liara is growing on me.

Modifié par jtav, 22 août 2011 - 01:34 .

[nitefyre410]

Arijharn wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think Mr. 'Lawson' has really damaged her self-esteem at all really. She may have doubts due to her creation and therefore her 'place in the world,' but at the same time she's very confident, and confidence I think is a pretty hard thing to 'fake.'

 

Confidence and Self-Esteem are two different things -  One ties to how well one  believes they can  do something and the other ties to ones value in oneself

She is very confident in her abilites but her  self esteem actually rather low because she  see's herself as nothing  of a tool - a means to  end.  Listen to how she speaks of the herself she talks as if she is  selling herself as a  Luxury car. 

"It's okay Shephard, my father didn't break me." (paraphrased... and I only played this section the other day too :

She does go on about how she's uncertain about her place in the universe, but I think everyone does that at some point in their lives, but she isn't using it as an excuse to hold herself back, even if she's overly critical of herself.

 

It plays out more in dialogue later but there is a conversation where  one of the Shepards reply is that she talk about herself as if hse is multi purpose tool.  Most of the Dialogue happnes before and after  her loyality mission.

[nitefyre410]

jtav wrote...

@ Ieldra: I doubt it. You'd essentially be punishing the player for doing as well as possible on the SM. Besides, Miranda is one of the easiest characters to turn traitor without it. Her love for Oriana is one of her greatest virtues, but it's also a weakness that can be exploited.

Just finishing a game myself. Still no idea how I'm going to resolve my romantic entanglements. Liara is growing on me.

 

Which  is why I hope they  bring over a variant of the  friendship/rivarly system from DA 2.  I.E  I end romancing both Isabella and Merrill. ... Isabella pulls my Hawke in the Hanged Man and tells him.  "Hurt  Merrill and I'll cut your balls off and feed'em  to you.."     

As for Liara  she won a ton of points with me in Lair of the Shadow Broker still not going to romance on her male shepards to its nice to have the massive  network  at my Shepards disposals 

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
@ Ieldra: I doubt it. You'd essentially be punishing the player for doing as well as possible on the SM. Besides, Miranda is one of the easiest characters to turn traitor without it. Her love for Oriana is one of her greatest virtues, but it's also a weakness that can be exploited.

But Miranda is also one of the easiest to justify indoctrination of, with Cerberus having studied Reaper tech all the time. Anyway, I'd be glad not having to worry about indoctrinated Miranda, but I do.
I'm also not getting that reasoning about the SM. What would mean punishing players?

Just finishing a game myself. Still no idea how I'm going to resolve my romantic entanglements. Liara is growing on me.

Flip a coin?

[flemm]

But Miranda is also one of the easiest to justify indoctrination of, with Cerberus having studied Reaper tech all the time.

Perhaps, though we've seen no real signs of it to this point. Also, if this ends up being a plot development that occurs in ME3, rather than a result of ME2, then everybody is more or less equally eligible.

I think the best case against Miranda is that she has enough impending issues and hanging plot threads to render indoctrination unnecessary as a plot twist for her specifically. But you never know.

Modifié par flemm, 22 août 2011 - 03:06 .

[jtav]

If she survives to get indoctrinated, what reason do I have not to kill her? No, if you're going to do that to a player, do it with someone they can't weasel out if. My money's on the VS, if they do it. They were standing right next to someone who was taken on Horizon, but they were spared. Shepard fighting indoctrination is what I really think will happen.

And very funny. This is hard.

[flemm]

Shepard fighting indoctrination is what I really think will happen.

Agreed. It makes sense. I do have to wonder how this would be handled, though, given that Shepard is unlikely to ever be out of the player's control. Will he be getting emails from the Reapers telling him what to do?

Modifié par flemm, 22 août 2011 - 03:13 .

[jtav]

But BW controls what Shep perceives. You think you're fighting Reapers but you're actually helping them.

[nitefyre410]

or    Shepard and  Company could find themselves  running around the galaxy  fighting against world  leaders that have been indoctrinated. Finding themselves very short on Allies. 

Shepard: Okay time to get the Turians help

Turian World Leaders:   One of Us

Shepard: Asari?

Asari  Leadership: One of Us 

Shepard: Salaren?

Salaren: One of us

Shepard:  Anyone else  seeing a pattern here <_< 

I kid but I'm some what serious

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

But BW controls what Shep perceives. You think you're fighting Reapers but you're actually helping them.

Yeah, but that can be only temporary. There would have to come a time when Shepard becomes conflicted, has some sort of epiphany or whatever. The player would then learn that much of what s/he has accomplished has been counterproductive. We haven't seen anything like that in the previous games. Could be interesting, of course, but it would mean a pretty big adjustment from a design persepective.

[jtav]

Not really. Jade Empire has the Big Bad manipulating you into taking out his rival for the fist half of the game. This would be something similar and then you'd learn the truth. Enter the only surviving person with Lazarus Project knowledge.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Not really. Jade Empire has the Big Bad manipulating you into taking out his rival for the fist half of the game. This would be something similar and then you'd learn the truth. Enter the only surviving person with Lazarus Project knowledge.

It's been done in other games, to be sure. Still, ME is largely built around Shepard (i.e. the player) being in control and getting an ego massage pretty regularly. So it would be a big adjustment within the context of this particular series of games.

Modifié par flemm, 22 août 2011 - 03:40 .

[Dr. Doctor]

I get the feeling that in between ME2 and 3 TIM and Cerberus managed to figure out how to use the indoctirnation process. According to the N7 Ops entry for the Cerberus Centurion:

Alliance Intelligence has scuttled their attempts to infiltrate
Cerberus to find out how the Illusive Man managed to quickly swell his
organization’s ranks

Does being considered a terrorist organization hinder your recruiting efforts? Need an army in a jiffy? No problem with Cerberus brand indoctrination! Simply pick the backwater colony of your choosing, wait a few weeks for our patented nanites to kick in and soon you too can have a private army of zelots at your beck and call.

[jtav]

I think we're looking at an army of tank-bred soldiers a la Grunt. And Shepard is no different than any other RPG protagonist. Again, BW pulled this off in JE by not giving players the full story until after they were tricked.

[Vertigo_1]

Ieldra2 wrote...
ME3 has a new lighting system? Where did you get that information?

Didn't you get to play the demo twice last week?

You didn't notice a difference in graphics/lighting?

[The Uncanny]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

You didn't notice a difference in graphics/lighting?

I've noticed from the trailers that the general aesthetic is slightly - how should I put this? - 'chunkier'.

I'm not entirely convinced.

[flemm]

Again, BW pulled this off in JE by not giving players the full story until after they were tricked.

Well, it would be interesting and possibly a refreshing change. We'll see.

[Ieldra]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
ME3 has a new lighting system? Where did you get that information?

Didn't you get to play the demo twice last week?

You didn't notice a difference in graphics/lighting?

To be honest, no. The level design was definitely improved, but the textures were of comparable quality to ME2's (which is, not so good and definitely less detailed than in most other current games). The Fall of Earth demo in the presentation at the panel looked absolutely stunning, but I couldn't say if the lighting had anything to do with it.

Remember I'm a PC player. Standard ME textures have always been laughable in quality. Low-res and with clunkiness where I would expect details, especially in the enviroments. ME3 looks better than ME2 so far, but that doesn't say much. Give me the likes of JeanLuc's improved textures for characters AND the environment, then we'll talk about looking good...   

(end of the standard rant about the effect of console gaming on graphics quality in games)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 août 2011 - 05:03 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

jtav wrote...

I feel like Shepard fighting indoctrination due to implants makes sense. Look at RenShep's eyes. Every other case of glowing eyes is due to Reaper tech. It makes sense that Shep has it too. It narratively justifies Shepard's death and resurrection. There were dozens of ways to estrange Shep and the Alliance. And yet, the writers chose death. It's silly if they use it as a simple reset button.

Hmm, Shepard built with Reaper tech? That may just be enough to fix the whole death issue in ME2, although I still would fancy an explanation on how Miranda/Cerberus found Shepard's build. Frankly, if we discovered Mira/Cerberus was lying and Shepard was just rebuilt in lieu of finding his/her brain. Well then I'm thoroughly intrigued.

[Dr. Doctor]

Indoctrination is a tricky thing with Shepard. Harbinger doesn't seem to want to have Shepard as an agent as much as he just wants to kill him, take his body, and find out what makes him tick. To me that's the key issue with the Reapers as villians. They have no real motivation behind their actions other than reproduction and their leader reminds me of Invader Zim with a deep voice.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...

I have to say, this might be the best quote I have ever stumbled upon in Mass Effect.

*I'm playing Mordin's LM, ya 'know. Entering the hospital, when Mordin finds the human and tells Shepard that they're experimenting on humans*

Shepard: "Experimenting on humans is wrong! Stuff like that starts to make Cerberus seem like a good idea."

Miranda: "That will be going in my report..."XD I LOLed.

Not so funny when you realize what a hypocrite Shepard is here. Criticizing experiments on humans and then saying Cerberus, of all things, seems like a good idea....

As for Paragon and Renegade choices, my canonical choices are
(1) Save the Rachni queen
(2) Keep Feros viable
(4) Keep the Collector base.

All others I mix and match according to how i envision my Shepard, but these I almost always take. It's representative. Most of my Shepards end up Paragade or Neutral, though lately I'm playing more Renegade-ish ones.

Coincidently, we have similar canonical choices. It has been ages since I killed off Feros even if my particularly renegade Shepards, which frankly most are. I do tend to kill the Rachni however I only one file with the Collector base destroyed and it still is irksome. I simply cannot justify ever destroying it.

In any case, paragon dialogue on Mordin's loyalty mission is rather out of place. Shepard essentially calls him a murderer and adheres to the blind idealism mindset far too easily. Nonetheless, it is amusing how shocked Miranda sounds when Shepard makes that remark. It feels like she wants to scream, "Finally!" especially if you've been badmouthing Cerberus since you joined.

[MisterJB]

Arijharn wrote...
"It's okay Shephard, my father didn't break me." (paraphrased... and I only played this section the other day too :
She does go on about how she's uncertain about her place in the universe, but I think everyone does that at some point in their lives, but she isn't using it as an excuse to hold herself back, even if she's overly critical of herself.

The "didn't break me" dialogue refers to Miranda becoming her own person instead of what her father wished her to be therefore unrelated to the "The only thing I can take credit for are my mistakes" dialogue.

So, Miranda can be proud/happy of knowying that what she does is for the greater good but still be uncapable of finding pride in her accomplishments because of her genetic engineering.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 août 2011 - 05:45 .

[flemm]

So, Miranda can be proud/happy of knowying that what she does is for the greater good but still be uncapable of finding pride in her accomplishments because of her genetic engineering.

That's basically how I interpreted it as well. I actually think that the confidence vs. self-esteem distinction, mentioned somewhere above, is pretty accurate where Miranda is concerned. She's confident in her abilities, but not willing to give herself any credit for it. Like playing a video game on easy mode, I guess. You know you are going to win, but you don't get that much satisfaction out of it.

Modifié par flemm, 22 août 2011 - 05:47 .

[jtav]

Apparently there were "I love Miranda" stickers at Gamescon, per a post on the Kaidan thread.