82210 réponses à ce sujet

[SpaceinMind]

drwells123 wrote...

elearon1 wrote...
And she worries about her relationship with Liara ... things happened on Illium that opened her eyes to how different they are ... how fleeting her life is in the thousand years Liara might well live.

Yes, the way Hale says "About us," in response to Liara's question ("What are we supposed to talk about?") is perfect. Many emotions are packed into those two words.

I love when she says that, it's so perfect in so many ways that it's kind of stunning.

Modifié par SpaceinMind, 09 septembre 2011 - 06:04 .

[ODST 3]

Liara says we've changed her a lot by romancing her but this is not really revealed in Mass Effect 2, so I hope there are multiple versions of her in Mass Effect 3.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I like the idea of Miranda having her hair up in battle similar to the picture on 489. Fighting in high heeled boots is one thing, but aiming a gun has to be difficult with your hair in your eyes

I doubt they'll do different hairstyles, and I like Miranda's long black hair too much. Also i find high heels in battle a great deal more riduculous than long hair. Imagine fighting anywhere but on unbroken hard flat surfaces. Mud, broken concrete, forest floor. A sure recipe to break your ankles. 

[Ieldra]

Skullheart wrote...
I don't understand people who critic her by the "I am perfect", "I am excellent", etc. She never said that she is perfect (Shepard is the one who brings that word), but Miri said almost instantly, that she isn't.

I think the reason is the first conversation on the Normandy, where she talks about her genetic modifications as being very impressive. Apparently it escapes people that she doesn't mean herself when she uses that word, and that, while she appreciates the modifications professionally, she also experiences the expectations put on her because of them as a burden. When she goes on to say she makes mistakes like anyone else and the consequences are severe if she does, the picture has already been fixed and people see her supposed "arrogance". 

But that may be rationalization. In the end, I think, some people just can't stand competent and professionally confident women who don't spend their lives orbiting a man and more to the point, their protagonist in a game. 

[drwells123]

Ieldra2 wrote...

But that may be rationalization. In the end, I think, some people just can't stand competent and professionally confident women who don't spend their lives orbiting a man and more to the point, their protagonist in a game. 

I just re-read Michael Crichton's "Congo" and found that the Karen Ross character rather reminded me of Miranda - independent, competent (in fact, a prodigy), ruthless, no fan of trivial niceties, and under intense pressure to succeed. (And I could almost hear Munro's lines being delivered by Zaeed.) Sadly, the author deals with her rather unfairly at the end.

[Ieldra]

ODST 3 wrote...
Liara says we've changed her a lot by romancing her but this is not really revealed in Mass Effect 2, so I hope there are multiple versions of her in Mass Effect 3.

I''ve always hated that statement. First, it implies that Shepard had the agency there and Miranda was nothing more but the object of his efforts. Second, it sounds like a bad omen - I like her in ME2 and I fear they'll Paragonize and chickify her, which I would hate more than anything else that could happen in ME3.

Apart from that, how does Liara know? The dossier is ambiguous and she can't look into Miranda's mind.

[drwells123]

Ieldra2 wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...
Liara says we've changed her a lot by romancing her but this is not really revealed in Mass Effect 2, so I hope there are multiple versions of her in Mass Effect 3.

I''ve always hated that statement. First, it implies that Shepard had the agency there and Miranda was nothing more but the object of his efforts. Second, it sounds like a bad omen - I like her in ME2 and I fear they'll Paragonize and chickify her, which I would hate more than anything else that could happen in ME3.

Apart from that, how does Liara know? The dossier is ambiguous and she can't look into Miranda's mind.

I interpret it to mean Shepard has merely made her more comfortable expressing feelings that she had anyway.

Liara mentions that she used to be "cold" and "focused on her duty", so maybe she was somehow more demonstrative when Liara met her again on the Normandy (maybe she just winked at Shepard when she thought Liara wasn't looking).

The trouble with this of course is that Liara hardly has time to get to know her during Redemption, and furthermore she isn't too cold to put a hand on Liara's shoulder and assure her that she did the right thing.

I wish Miranda had some reaction to first seeing Liara on Ilium, but if she promised not to tell Shepard about Liara handing over her body then I guess it makes sense for them to pretend not to recognize each other.

[Arijharn]

I thought the same as drwells too. I think Shephard's just managed to thaw her personality a bit, and goes hand in hand to some of Kasumi's dialogue too I think.

[JosephDucreux]

I agree with wells, Shepard thawed Miranda's personality till she's now actually able to express emotions (albeit awkwardly) to the ones she loves. So much so that some people mistook it for character derailment, OOC-ness...and the list of schmuck goes on and on.

TBH jtav, I simply can't comprehend why you need just about everything you wish for your 'perfect, ideal' romance with Miranda to be game material. Why not just imagine it? For example, Miranda has gone on a few dates with Arnold Shepard, but that wasn't ingame. There were many conversations between Arnold and Miranda that built up the romance before the renegade kiss, but that wasn't game material. At the end of the day, it simply boils down to whether or not you're willing/able to imagine it.

[JosephDucreux]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I''ve always hated that statement. First, it implies that Shepard had the agency there and Miranda was nothing more but the object of his efforts. Second, it sounds like a bad omen - I like her in ME2 and I fear they'll Paragonize and chickify her, which I would hate more than anything else that could happen in ME3.

Apart from that, how does Liara know? The dossier is ambiguous and she can't look into Miranda's mind.

Y u so paranoid? As long as Miranda doesn't suddenly become a stay-at-home-mom baking cupcakes all day long, it's kosher.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
I thought the same as drwells too. I think Shephard's just managed to thaw her personality a bit, and goes hand in hand to some of Kasumi's dialogue too I think.

I can hope it's that and not more. Just "You have no idea how much you've changed her" sounds....ominous. And I maintain that it makes her appear more malleable than I'd like her to be, and Shepard more of an influence on her opinions - not just her emotions - than I'd like him to be. I don't know who wrote that line, but I'd never write it about any character I respect unless it means exactly that.
That said, I wouldn't mind Miranda being markedly different depending on certain decisions in the game and some players having effectively a different Miranda in their games. As long as it isn't implied that Shepard was reconfiguring Miranda's malleable personality with his godlike aura of awesome. 

@Joseph Ducreux:
Paranoid? Maybe, but with good reason. A few of my (ex-)favorite characters in fiction suffered that fate. Apparently, certain stereotypes are attractors.

[Melra]

JosephDucreux wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I''ve always hated that statement. First, it implies that Shepard had the agency there and Miranda was nothing more but the object of his efforts. Second, it sounds like a bad omen - I like her in ME2 and I fear they'll Paragonize and chickify her, which I would hate more than anything else that could happen in ME3.

Apart from that, how does Liara know? The dossier is ambiguous and she can't look into Miranda's mind.

Y u so paranoid? As long as Miranda doesn't suddenly become a stay-at-home-mom baking cupcakes all day long, it's kosher.

But isn't that one type of ''perfect woman'' ? 

[Arijharn]

While I have nothing to back up my thoughts Ieldra, I just think you're making mountains out of molehills by reading too much into it. At least, I hope so, but I also think the possibility of that being the case is to be so minute it's effectively 1 percent (I never say 0 percent because I don't believe in absolutes!).

I doubt any character (of Shephard's team) is nearly as malleable as we've come to expect though.

[LexieTheT-Rexy]

MIRANDA IS AWESOME!!!!!!! (Because I don't know how we got to talking about liara)

And yes, I played Overlod, and it was extremely disturbing.

[nitefyre410]

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...

MIRANDA IS AWESOME!!!!!!! (Because I don't know how we got to talking about liara)

And yes, I played Overlod, and it was extremely disturbing.

 


Same-   What happened to David was  Terrible and in way at the end I felt that Archer in his own way as victim as well -  I felt at least that he regreated what he was doing and what happened.  Still  My Shepard shut that place down and pistol whipped him just to knock some sense into the man.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 09 septembre 2011 - 12:34 .

[Fatemaster]

nitefyre410 wrote...

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...

MIRANDA IS AWESOME!!!!!!! (Because I don't know how we got to talking about liara)

And yes, I played Overlod, and it was extremely disturbing.

 


See -   What happened to David was  Terrible and in way at the end I felt that Archer in his own way as victim as well -  I felt at least that he regreated what he was doing and what happened.  Still  My Shepard shut that place down and pistol whipped him just to knock some sense into the man.

Same over here.

[nitefyre410]

*delete*

Modifié par nitefyre410, 09 septembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Apart from that, how does Liara know? The dossier is ambiguous and she can't look into Miranda's mind.

Well, as a character, she wouldn't know. She might surmise, but that's it. On the other hand, it's possible that Liara is basically speaking on behalf of the writers, as happens sometimes in that type of situation, so it could be a sort of foreshadowing.

It's worth pointing out, though, that Shepard himself has his doubts, "I'm not sure she's changed all that much," etc.

At any rate, personally, I'm open to the idea that Miranda's experiences in ME2 changed her, for a variety of reasons, including romantic involvement with Shepard and possibly other choices, such as speaking with Orianna. For the simple reason that strong characters can change and evolve. There's a limit to how much I want to see Miranda change: she should remain tough, competant and capable of ruthlessness situationally. But I think she will.

I could get on board with some other types of changes.

Modifié par flemm, 09 septembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[nitefyre410]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Apart from that, how does Liara know? The dossier is ambiguous and she can't look into Miranda's mind.

Well, as a character, she wouldn't know. She might surmise, but that's it. On the other hand, it's possible that Liara is basically speaking on behalf of the writers, as happens sometimes in that type of situation, so it could be a sort of foreshadowing.

It's worth pointing out, though, that Shepard himself has his doubts, "I'm not sure she's changed all that much," etc.

At any rate, personally, I'm open to the idea that Miranda's experiences in ME2 changed her, for a variety of reasons, including romantic involvement with Shepard and possibly other choices, such as speaking with Orianna. For the simple reason that strong characters can change and evolve. There's a limit to how much I want to see Miranda change: she should remain tough, competant and capable of ruthlessness situationally. But I think she will.

I could get on board with some other types of changes.

 

Going through something like the Collector Base and Surviving is going to change  a person on a lot of levels.  They start looking at life and things very differently-  she has  know seen the threat first hand and she leading at least maybe one of the fire teams  she may or should have gained the trust of the people around her. 

[flemm]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Going through something like the Collector Base and Surviving is going to change  a person on a lot of levels.  They start looking at life and things very differently-  she has  know seen the threat first hand and she leading at least maybe one of the fire teams  she may or should have gained the trust of the people around her. 

I agree. Obviously, in this type of game, characters are routinely going through all manner of mind-boggling experiences, so we tend to get a bit numb to it after a while, I guess. But, yeah, her experience on the CB might be another big one, and surviving something like that, as well as witnessing firsthand those events, could cause a person to re-evaluate a lot of stuff.

It's Miranda's allegiance to Cerberus that is likely to be the big difference tbh. She has had an idealized vision of the organisation, which she may not have anymore in ME3. Just in time to help me blow them up, hopefully

Modifié par flemm, 09 septembre 2011 - 01:09 .

[nitefyre410]

flemm wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Going through something like the Collector Base and Surviving is going to change  a person on a lot of levels.  They start looking at life and things very differently-  she has  know seen the threat first hand and she leading at least maybe one of the fire teams  she may or should have gained the trust of the people around her. 

I agree. Obviously, in this type of game, characters are routinely going through all manner of mind-boggling experiences, so we tend to get a bit numb to it after a while, I guess. But, yeah, her experience on the CB might be another big one, and surviving something like that, as well as witnessing firsthand those events, could cause a person to re-evaluate a lot of stuff.

 

Thats what makes  strong story telling -   The main thing I am looking for in ME 3 that is going to weigth heavily in how well  Bioware  has  and is telling this story - is how we see these characters change from ME 2 to ME 3. How that experience   affected them  for good and for ill.

[jtav]

I like her warming up on a personal level to people she trusts. But too often in fiction it comes with a complete personality overhaul, with natural reserve treated as a pathology. I'm particularly worried she'll lose her drive to advance humanity in favor of "I just want to be normal."

I'm hoping merely not romancing her is sufficient.

[nitefyre410]

jtav wrote...

I like her warming up on a personal level to people she trusts. But too often in fiction it comes with a complete personality overhaul, with natural reserve treated as a pathology. I'm particularly worried she'll lose her drive to advance humanity in favor of "I just want to be normal."

I'm hoping merely not romancing her is sufficient.

 


Well thats a  personal conflict that can be  highlighted in the ME 3 for her story.      There is no need to removed  that desire for her  to want a  normal life, Family, husand, childern.  The Advancement vs Normal  Life conflict for her and her coming to terms with that inner clashing of desires  would a great  tale to tell.   Coming to term does not mean she choose one or there other - it means she finds a medium  and a balance to between the two.

[flemm]

Some balance between the two could work, sure.

I'm not really concerned about the balance tipping too far toward "I want a normal life," though. Partly that's just the nature of these games. They never depict normal life. Beyond that, we have already seen that she wants a normal life for Oriana, so it would feel pretty redundant to have Miranda suddenly want the same thing as her main motivation.

Modifié par flemm, 09 septembre 2011 - 02:55 .

[elearon1]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 As long as it isn't implied that Shepard was reconfiguring Miranda's malleable personality with his godlike aura of awesome.  

Shepard is comprised of Reaper tech and has been Indoctrinating her crew members through the entirety of ME2 - that is why everyone thinks she is so awesome and is willing to die for her. (you notice almost everyone on board states they're doing it for Shepard, rather than for Cerberus)