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"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


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#13501
flemm

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Collider wrote...
It's especially out of the ordinary for me considering Miranda's self-professed "you're going to have to prove your worth to me" attitude.


Well, s/he has proved her/his worth to Miranda at this point, I don't think there's any doubt about that, and that's obviously at least part of what the conversation is designed to convey. But no problem there, really.

As to whether Miranda means that Shepard is the epitome of all things human, I think that's a bit of a stretch. What impresses Miranda about Shepard is the intangible stuff: leadership, especially.

#13502
SlottsMachine

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Not sure if it has been discussed, but I've always felt that Miranda's resignation from Cerberus should you choose to destroy the base seemed very much out of character for her. I bet this isn't anything new around here, but I've been thinking about it some and I may have come up with a different interpretation of it. 

I've been wondering if Miranda's allegiance to Cerberus is secondary to her allegiance to the Illusive Man. We don't have much insight into there relationship, but we do know that TIM took in Miranda when she felt that she had know where else to go, and I'm sure this meant a lot to her. And over time there relationship grew, and I'm sure it became commonplace for Miranda to ask favors from TIM, and expectations would likely be that Miranda would pay those favors back. Maybe TIM needing her for a senitive mission he didn't want messed up, when she has a more interesting project on the go, who knows. This is just a hypothetical.     

I may not be the biggest fan of Miranda but I always try to do right by her. So along comes Shepard, and Miranda has some personal issues to be dealt with, and Shep runs off to set things right asking nothing from her other than what she had already given, which is her help in assaulting the collecter base. At this point Miranda is thinking highly of Shepard, maybe not at TIM's level but close, they have formed quite the team. During the suicide mission TIM asks then orders her to betray Shepard, and I believe Miranda felt betrayed by TIM just by him having put her in this situation. It was supposed to be the three of them working together, but TIM lost her by forcing her to choose, as at no point can Shep order her to do harm to TIM and I think that's the key.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:25 .


#13503
nitefyre410

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I think a lot of the issues arise with resignation from Cerberus was because her story I think - is a story about the difference between Loyalty and Blind Loyalty. Something that Bioware never really touched on in the game. Which why I think they should have taken a page for Persona 3 and 4 social link system. You go through ten levels and the you see the character progress through the relationship and develop. The thing is with the way Bioware did ME 2 you never really see the characters develop as the game progress. So they choices at the end and you kinda scratching your head.

#13504
clennon8

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I don't think Miranda resigning is necessarily out out of character. I roleplay that in my head as her coming to the realization that TIM has the wrong motives for wanting to keep the Collector base. Basically, the same reason that my Shepard usually destroys the base.

However, I do have a problem with that comment she makes about how keeping the Collector base "feels like a betrayal." That is definitely out of character. She wouldn't worry about how it "feels." She would look at it simply in terms of cost vs. benefit.

But I'm sure this argument has been had approximately one billion times.

#13505
flemm

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clennon8 wrote...

But I'm sure this argument has been had approximately one billion times.


Probably more Image IPB

For what it's worth, I don't think it's out of character. But it is something we need more information about, directly or indirectly, in ME3. It's no surprise the line is controversial. It's a defining moment for the character, a big change of perspective, and then we are left hanging with only very limited insight into the motivation and thought-process behind the decision.

Modifié par flemm, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:45 .


#13506
SlottsMachine

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nitefyre410 wrote...

I think a lot of the issues arise with resignation from Cerberus was because her story I think - is a story about the difference between Loyalty and Blind Loyalty. Something that Bioware never really touched on in the game.  


I agree, it fits what I was trying to say. Finding out who really has your back, when your unknowingly surrounded by users. 

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:47 .


#13507
nitefyre410

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clennon8 wrote...

I don't think Miranda resigning is necessarily out out of character. I roleplay that in my head as her coming to the realization that TIM has the wrong motives for wanting to keep the Collector base. Basically, the same reason that my Shepard usually destroys the base.

However, I do have a problem with that comment she makes about how keeping the Collector base "feels like a betrayal." That is definitely out of character. She wouldn't worry about how it "feels." She would look at it simply in terms of cost vs. benefit.

But I'm sure this argument has been had approximately one billion times.

 


Well that Line seems out of Character because   Bioware never showed her progression from Cost v Benefit to  more of going with your gut and whats feels right.  So when you get the end of the Game  - her saying that  really blow some peoples mind because there is progression of change from  point A to Point B. 

#13508
Dr. Doctor

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The whole resignation from Cerberus scene at the end to me is just tacked-on to diferentiate the two endings. Considering that no matter which option we choose Cerberus is an enemy in ME3 the whole base decision seems to be a moot point. Think along the lines of not saving the Council in ME1 so you have a Human Council in ME2, it doesn't really change anything.

#13509
Skullheart

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The lackof info is makin me ask a misc question: What animal can represent Miranda?. Like an inner animal,animal form, animal spirit, etc.

My answer is a black phanter. They have elegance, a mysterious aura. And they are deadly.

#13510
Melra

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Panther or leopard. :P

#13511
Ieldra

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GeneralSlotts193 wrote...
Not sure if it has been discussed, but I've always felt that Miranda's resignation from Cerberus should you choose to destroy the base seemed very much out of character for her. I bet this isn't anything new around here, but I've been thinking about it some and I may have come up with a different interpretation of it.

:lol: Has it been discussed? In about five million words. While I can accept her resignation as such with some mental twisting around, I happen to agree with you, particulary the way she talks with TIM about the whole thing if you choose "this is an abomination" at the first exchange with TIM ("using anything from this base seems like a betrayal") is something of a pet peeve of mine. As for why, see here, here and here.

I've been wondering if Miranda's allegiance to Cerberus is secondary to her allegiance to the Illusive Man. We don't have much insight into there relationship, but we do know that TIM took in Miranda when she felt that she had know where else to go, and I'm sure this meant a lot to her. And over time there relationship grew, and I'm sure it became commonplace for Miranda to ask favors from TIM, and expectations would likely be that Miranda would pay those favors back. Maybe TIM needing her for a senitive mission he didn't want messed up, when she has a more interesting project on the go, who knows. This is just a hypothetical.

Hmm. I've always thought Miranda believes in the ideals of Cerberus (advancement of humanity) more than in TIM personally. But you have a point, it's a topic worth exploring. We don't have much to go on, though, except Miranda's assertion that TIM has humanity's best interests at heart.

I may not be the biggest fan of Miranda but I always try to do right by her. So along comes Shepard, and Miranda has some personal issues to be dealt with, and Shep runs off to set things right asking nothing from her other than what she had already given, which is her help in assaulting the collecter base. At this point Miranda is thinking highly of Shepard, maybe not at TIM's level but close, they have formed quite the team. During the suicide mission TIM asks then orders her to betray Shepard, and I believe Miranda felt betrayed by TIM just by him having put her in this situation. It was supposed to be the three of them working together, but TIM lost her by forcing her to choose, as at no point can Shep order her to do harm to TIM and I think that's the key.

Yes, that's one spin I've put on the situation, and it's the one I'm using in the one game where I destroy the base. Only there's that damnable "betrayal" line, which suggests it's more about the base and the supposed wrongness of using its technology against the Reapers than about TIM.

flemm wrote...
It's no surprise the line is controversial. It's a defining moment for the character, a big change of perspective, and then we are left hanging with only very limited insight into the motivation and thought-process behind the decision.

That's what I fear more than anything else - that this is a sign of things to come. Miranda making big strategic decisions based on emotions would not be my favorite character anymore. Her "the mission comes first" attitude and her willingness to make pragmatic decisions and defend them when challenged is a big part of what attracted me to her. We rarely get women like that who aren't portrayed as villains. Instead there has always been a damnable tendency to portrait a woman as a man's conscience. Miranda appears to break the mould so far, and I am desperate, really desperate that this element will not be not lost to her character in ME3.

There's also the fact that there isn't any other LI than Miranda for a more Renegade-ish maleShep.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:44 .


#13512
Ieldra

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Dr. Doctor wrote...
The whole resignation from Cerberus scene at the end to me is just tacked-on to diferentiate the two endings. Considering that no matter which option we choose Cerberus is an enemy in ME3 the whole base decision seems to be a moot point. Think along the lines of not saving the Council in ME1 so you have a Human Council in ME2, it doesn't really change anything.

I certainly get the impression that not a lot of thought went into it with regard to the repercussions for Miranda.

#13513
Ieldra

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Skullheart wrote...
The lackof info is makin me ask a misc question: What animal can represent Miranda?. Like an inner animal,animal form, animal spirit, etc.

My answer is a black panther. They have elegance, a mysterious aura. And they are deadly.

Not to forget, they're beautiful. Nice image. I agree.

#13514
Ieldra

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LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...
And I also want to see what instruments she can play. I'm sure with her intelligence, and the teachings of her father, she had lessons of some sort. Oriana can play violin, but I see Miranda playing a gigantic grand piano.

Uh oh....I just read a heartbreaking scene with Miranda playing the violin. I don't think she can sing, at least not better than average, but I think she has the talent to play an instrument like a violin well. It's quite likely she's never developed it further though, for various reasons.

#13515
clennon8

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I think she would have been a prodigy at whatever instrument she took an interest in as a young girl.  And I don't think her father would have discouraged her from it, although it would have been just one of several things in her regimen that she was required to devote time to. But she probably "gave it up" by the time she ran away.

Modifié par clennon8, 16 septembre 2011 - 06:23 .


#13516
Shotokanguy

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Ugh. Reading these discussions does not prompt me to share my opinions, only continue to remark on how cheated I feel in regards to the amount of character interaction there is with Miranda. I don't know how BioWare is possibly going to satisfy me with one character, let alone all the others I like. There's so much you could stand to learn about them, if they write it well enough.

But the disk only has so much space.

#13517
drwells123

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Ieldra2 wrote...
Uh oh....I just read a heartbreaking scene with Miranda playing the violin. I don't think she can sing, at least not better than average, but I think she has the talent to play an instrument like a violin well. It's quite likely she's never developed it further though, for various reasons.


What fic was that?

#13518
drwells123

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Shotokanguy wrote...

Ugh. Reading these discussions does not prompt me to share my opinions, only continue to remark on how cheated I feel in regards to the amount of character interaction there is with Miranda.


Write fanfic, then you can make up your own ;)

#13519
Ieldra

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drwells123 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Uh oh....I just read a heartbreaking scene with Miranda playing the violin. I don't think she can sing, at least not better than average, but I think she has the talent to play an instrument like a violin well. It's quite likely she's never developed it further though, for various reasons.


What fic was that?

An unpublished chapter of Elyvern's "Degrees of Inheritance" I'm beta-reading atm. Likely to be published in about ten days when she's back. I won't spoil it in public, if you want to be spoiled, ask me in a PM.

#13520
clennon8

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I'm so looking forward to the next installment of that story!  Degrees of Inheritance and Interstitium are hands down the two best Mass Effect fanfics I know of.  Both are waaay better than anything Drew Karpyshyn ever published, that's for sure.

EDIT:  Just to be clear, Interstitium is written by a different author, AssaultSloth.  I mentioned it only because it's the only other ME fanfic I consider to be in the same stratosphere as Elyvern's.  But that's just my opinion, of course.

Modifié par clennon8, 16 septembre 2011 - 08:58 .


#13521
who would know

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Ieldra2 wrote...
Her "the mission comes first" attitude and her willingness to make pragmatic decisions and defend them when challenged is a big part of what attracted me to her. We rarely get women like that who aren't portrayed as villains. Instead there has always been a damnable tendency to portrait a woman as a man's conscience. Miranda appears to break the mould so far, and I am desperate, really desperate that this element will not be not lost to her character in ME3.

I never thought about it that way. It's true, the burden of command and the tactical decisions that come with it are best placed on a leader able to make those calls with her head, not her heart. I'm interested, can you elaborate on the bolded part for me?

Also, pics.

Image IPB

Image IPB

Modifié par who would know, 16 septembre 2011 - 08:54 .


#13522
goofyomnivore

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What animal can represent Miranda?


I would agree Panther/Cougar is the best. However I think an Owl or Fox could work too.

Also wow 541 pages. I think last time I posted was like 392 and that wasn't too long ago.

#13523
Ieldra

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flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
As a combatant, she's nothing special.


What is your reasoning there? On the contrary, the game seems to go out of its way to underline that she's an exceptionally versatile and effective squad member/squad leader/combattant.

In game, she'd be back because she's the most effective leader/fighter around, with the added bonus of her knowledge of the Cerberus organisation (invaluable).

I do agree about Lazarus being potentially really cool as a story hook for her, though.

She's nothing special because she can't do anything Shepard can't do in combat. He's the best leader (though I think it's more an informed trait than anything we actually see in the game) and the best frontline fighter. Miranda is good, but so are others. She would add nothing unique to the team if she were only there as a combatant.

As a field operative, scientist or project administrator, though, no one else on the team is even remotely on her level after Mordin's gone. I'd also say Shepard would be well-advised to take her tactical and strategic advice since he shows so little awareness of that, but I guess that's part of that informed trait "great leadership". BTW, has anyone else imagined Miranda and Mordin becoming great friends?

#13524
clennon8

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Great friends? Maybe. Certainly, I think they would have a great deal of respect for each other. jtav touches on that nicely in one or two of her stories.

#13525
Spanky Magoo

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Skullheart wrote...

The lackof info is makin me ask a misc question: What animal can represent Miranda?. Like an inner animal,animal form, animal spirit, etc.

My answer is a black phanter. They have elegance, a mysterious aura. And they are deadly.


nice something new to talk about lol, Id say a fox (female foxes are called vixens) so it seems to fit nicely.